Buying a small mill

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Possibly moved on since 2007 when the video was posted and who knows when it was actually filmed.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 11:08:32:

Possibly moved on since 2007 when the video was posted and who knows when it was actually filmed.

Very impressed with the sieg video. Looks like the Hass factory. Very neat.

Steve.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The BSA Fury and Triumph Bandit came 5 years too late. When you consider the opposition to Hondas CB72 was the BSA C15 the only excuse you can think of is British stupidity.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 07/05/2020 01:04:21:.

…

I would like to have a machine delivered which I can use straight out f the crate without having to rebuild it first.

Am I asking too much?

…

MC

Not at all, my WM18 was was OK out of the box and I've done nothing to it since apart from fit a DRO. All my other Chinese machines also worked out of the box, but benefited from some minor fettling. By far the worst was my bandsaw, on first sight very discouraging, but despite being rough, it actually works well. Not much work needed, better than a kit of parts, but not a polished product. My favourite tool because it saves so much hard labour.

However, there is an alternative if you want machines guaranteed to work! All you have to do is order one.

The forum is misleading because we discuss Hobby Machines and second-hand industrial kit. Never about new industrial kit. There's a reason! Rule of thumb, such machines are between six and twenty times more expensive than a Hobby machine. £10,000 barely gets you in the game. Multi-axis CNC Machine Centres are the acme of modern machining and they can easily cost a couple of million.

With one exception I don't know of anyone on the forum who has coughed up for a new non-hobby machine. Machines of this class could be Western, but they're made in South America, Russia, and Asia.

Best to stay real about hobby machines. For you are they fit for purpose and value for money? The answer depends on your needs. For me as a hobbist the answer is a clear yes. If I used machines to make a living the answer would be 'no', because time is money, and I wouldn't want to waste it on a hobby machines unable to do long hours flat-out with reliable precision. As it is, I do far more thinking than cutting, and it doesn't matter that I waste time driving machines carefully within their limitations.

I'm a little suspicious of chaps who demanding top-quality machines because they don't report doing lots of fast precision work. Rather, most of us potter along at a rate that would give a foreman apoplexy, producing only moderately accurate stuff. Slow, old-fashioned fun that's very satisfying, but far from busy tool-room standards, and only ordinary equipment is needed. It's also apparent that some owners are very happy with good-name equipment despite their machine being worn, far from 'as new' condition. It's great because they think it is!

Whatever floats your boat. But don't buy a clapped out Myford expecting it to be better than a new next size up Chinese hobby lathe, and don't buy a Hobby lathe expecting a Dean Smith & Grace.

The acid test, can you tell the difference between a part made on a Chinese Hobby Mill and the same part made on a Bridgeport? What exactly would be different and does it matter to you?

Dave

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 11:13:32:

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 11:08:32:

Possibly moved on since 2007 when the video was posted and who knows when it was actually filmed.

Very impressed with the sieg video. Looks like the Hass factory. Very neat.

Steve.

Steve,

So that no one gets confused, Jason was saying that Hoppers You Tube video – china press is from 2007.

The SIEG video to which Jason linked, from this page is from around 2018.

Ketan at ARC.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Eventually, we all profited from the expertise of an American Quality expert, Deeming. But Japan got their first.

Someone said that the sour taste of low quality lasts longer than the sweet taste of low price.

We are all different.

What suits one does not suit another. A clockmaker does not need a lathe with a 500 mm swing any more than a locomotive restorer could manage with a Zyto.

Some want to "plug and Play", another may get a lot of satisfaction from refurbishing an old, worn machine.

I would, if I had the facilities, the confidence, and the skill; which I do not. It would be superb to regrind the bed, make new gears, and a new mandrel, for a lathe and then to set it up. After a lifetime in industry, not as a machinist, I hope that I know my limitations. Maybe overcautious. But I don't want to start on a machine and, through ignorance and lack of skill, render it less accurate than when I started, That would be a short cut to disillusionment.

We are mostly hobbyists on here. If you enjoy the intellectual exercise of working out the change gears for a particular thread, carry on. If you don't maybe a machine with a Norton box suits your purposes better.

Producing parts for interchangeability requires working to a tolerance.

Maybe we should use that in our comments to each other on here. We are not right all the time about everything! There is a lot of collective knowledge on the Forum, let us not disregard it in our own self regard

Howard.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/05/2020 11:56:37:

[…]

There is a lot of collective knowledge on the Forum, let us not disregard it in our own self regard

Howard.

.

Well said, Howard

Any decent forum thrives upon collective knowledge

MichaelG.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/05/2020 11:47:06:

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 11:13:32:

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 11:08:32:

Possibly moved on since 2007 when the video was posted and who knows when it was actually filmed.

Very impressed with the sieg video. Looks like the Hass factory. Very neat.

Steve.

Steve,

So that no one gets confused, Jason was saying that Hoppers You Tube video – china press is from 2007.

The SIEG video to which Jason linked, from this page is from around 2018.

Ketan at ARC.

Yes I watched both of them. The later one shows a very clean modern environment. I never imagined it to be like that at all. But surely there must be some factories that are not up to that spec. Or are they all as good now. I live & learn.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Ketan please check that link. I was just on the seig site & Bitdefender brought this up.

We blocked this dangerous page for your protection: http://www.siegind.com/Application/Home/View/demo_ximate/js/js.js Threat name: JS:Trojan.Cryxos.2702 Dangerous pages attempt to install software that can harm the device, gather personal information or operate without your consent.

Steve.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 12:54:12:

Ketan please check that link. I was just on the seig site & Bitdefender brought this up.

We blocked this dangerous page for your protection: http://www.siegind.com/Application/Home/View/demo_ximate/js/js.js Threat name: JS:Trojan.Cryxos.2702 Dangerous pages attempt to install software that can harm the device, gather personal information or operate without your consent.

Steve.

Hi Steve,

I think you have brought this up before on another thread. The page worked fine for most, and not for some.

I believe the conclusion there was that one antivirus software would behave differently from another.

Just don't open the page if you are not happy.

Ketan at ARC.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Yes it has happened before. I was on the site a while before that came up. Anyway no harm done.

Steve.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 12:47:31:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/05/2020 11:47:06:

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 11:13:32:

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 11:08:32:

Possibly moved on since 2007 when the video was posted and who knows when it was actually filmed.

Very impressed with the sieg video. Looks like the Hass factory. Very neat.

Steve.

Steve,

So that no one gets confused, Jason was saying that Hoppers You Tube video – china press is from 2007.

The SIEG video to which Jason linked, from this page is from around 2018.

Ketan at ARC.

Yes I watched both of them. The later one shows a very clean modern environment. I never imagined it to be like that at all. But surely there must be some factories that are not up to that spec. Or are they all as good now. I live & learn.

Steve.

It depends on the product, value of the product, how much an international buyer is prepared to pay, location of factory in China, how much hand to mouth it is working, how unscrupulous a boss is, rejection rate sold off on eBbay/banggood, back door policy for financial gain / black market money laundering on eBay/banggood which buyers, local politician and international government support, politics and enforcement of government regulations in the area. Everyone has a mouth to feed – one way or another and who are we to judge?…

As I said before, we all love a bargain … with or without understanding. What people got was cheap, so why give a dam right?

From 2007 to now, worker rights throughout China have improved immensely. Chances of things being made in the way shown in Hoppers 2007 video are low.

Ketan at ARC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 12:47:31:

Yes I watched both of them. The later one shows a very clean modern environment. I never imagined it to be like that at all. But surely there must be some factories that are not up to that spec.

I don't think Banggood have any video of their suppliers worksheds

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Ladies & Gentlemen

All this is fascinating but I'm really interested in readers' experiences of small bench-top mills (less than 50cm front to back).

At present, I would rather spend under £600 so that I will have some cash to spend on tooling and accesories.

Very many thanks for your understanding

MC

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 08/05/2020 13:27:28:

Ladies & Gentlemen

All this is fascinating but I'm really interested in readers' experiences of small bench-top mills (less than 50cm front to back).

At present, I would rather spend under £600 so that I will have some cash to spend on tooling and accesories.

Very many thanks for your understanding

MC

Sorry from me. Digress is a terrible thing. Are you biased towards 2nd hand or new. Not sure how much a reasonable new one will cost you. You could drop lucky with a 2nd hand one that comes with extra's. Which would save you on tooling. If new then someone else will have to assist.

Steve.

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 13:39:09:

Sorry from me. Digress is a terrible thing. Are you biased towards 2nd hand or new. Not sure how much a reasonable new one will cost you. You could drop lucky with a 2nd hand one that comes with extra's. Which would save you on tooling. If new then someone else will have to assist.

Steve.

If I could obtain a second-hand Mill in good condition, I would be happy with that but feel that a new machine with a guarantee and support from the supplier might be a better bet.

And unless the seller of a second-hand Mill lived in East Hertfordshire, I would NOT be able to take possession until after the Covid-19 pandemic lockdown.

Nothing is likely to be shareable with my little lathe so interchangibility isn't a big issue.

With best wishes and thanks

MC

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Unless you could bag a deal from a supplies who may include some tooling to get you going. Worth a try I guess.

The cutters can be bought at a reasonable price. It is things like a machine vice that will cost a bit more.

Steve.

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 18:50:14:

Unless you could bag a deal from a supplies who may include some tooling to get you going. Worth a try I guess.

The cutters can be bought at a reasonable price. It is things like a machine vice that will cost a bit more.

Steve.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I inherited a lot of End Mills and Slot Drills from a chum whose wife decided that thy were going to move into a flat.

He had a big workshop – bigger than a Double Garage – with various machine tools, including a lathe, pillar drill and table saw that his father had converted to electrickery from being belt driven. I didn't have space for any of those but I gratefully accepted drills, taps & dies reamers, milling cutters, tool bits, measuring tools to add to what my late father left.

So I have got a selection of cutters to start with.

But I have noticed the cost of Milling Vices! It seems a shame that most seem to come on a swivel base – the usefulness of which is questionable.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Yes I do not have a rotating version. It is a good one by Abwood. If I need to offset I just undo one bolt & clamp that side . I have no problem with height but it could be with table top versions. At least they come off if not needed.

Steve.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 08/05/2020 13:27:28:

Ladies & Gentlemen

All this is fascinating but I'm really interested in readers' experiences of small bench-top mills (less than 50cm front to back).

At present, I would rather spend under £600 so that I will have some cash to spend on tooling and accesories.

Very many thanks for your understanding

 

MC

 

You are not going to get a lot of milling machine for 600 billy lids. Take a look at Sieg mills. Their reputation is very good for hobby grade machines but prices might be a bit high for you. The SX3 model is good substantial hobby machine from what I have seen personally. Many model engineers do well with the cheaper and smaller SX2 though.

Be wary of going too low budget or with unknown brands etc and ending up with an undersize or poor quality machine that struggles to do what you want.

Edited By Hopper on 09/05/2020 07:55:20

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Dave Halford on 08/05/2020 11:33:49:

The BSA Fury and Triumph Bandit came 5 years too late. When you consider the opposition to Hondas CB72 was the BSA C15 the only excuse you can think of is British stupidity.

Except the Fury/Bandit engines incurably shook themselves to pieces on the test bench and self-destructed before they got to market, despite full page ads for them in all the bike magazines. Rather unsurprising as they were designed by the same fellow who designed the Ariel Square 4 in 1928 and the Triumph Speed Twin of 1937. By 1971 poor old Edward Turner, 70, was yesterday's man, despite his outstanding lifetime achievements. Bit like the industry as a whole really.

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