Buying a small mill

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

I have realised in the last few days (when I have spent a lot of time in my shed-workshop) that I need a small Mill or Mill/Drill

I have discovered that milling on my lathe with a milling slide is an uphill struggle.

I have discovered that there are a number of suppliers who offer small Mills and it's almost impossible to choose between them.

Can anybody pass on their experiences with particular models, please?

Can anybody point out out pitfalls that I should try to avoid

What have I forgotten to ask?

I hope that you and your families are – and will remain – well.

MC Black

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

Hi MC,

The size of mill will depend on what you want to machine. There needs to be enough headroom under the column for tooling and a vice, etc. Smaller mills are not as rigid as bigger ones and the column may flex under heavy loads.

Do a search on this forrum, there have been many posts about selecting a mill and tooling.

My first mill was a Seig SX3 which was just big enough for most of the machining that I did to make my traction engine. The parts that were too big, I took elsewhere. The SX3 had a variable speed, brushless DC motor which was quick and easy to change speeds. At slow speed, the torque was reasonable but not great. All was good until I started having problems with the motor speed control board which had to be replaced. Not cheap ! Also had to replace the power feed motor and controller for the table.

I now have a RF-45 type mill. Slightly bigger and sturdier but with a standard AC motor and a gearbox. Something which I can repair myself if something should go wrong. Whatever you decide to buy, check if you can get it repaired and an idea of costs.

Paul.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

PS. To the admin staff:

It seem that every week there is a query about selecting a mill or lathe and it would be a good if there was a section on the site that new members could easily find. Not everyone knows about previous posts or how to find them.

Paul.

Edited By Paul Lousick on 05/05/2020 02:23:46

[Philip BurleyParticipant @philipburley44197]

all I can add , is do not buy one with a round column . They are a menace when you lose the registration when you have to lift the head , I have a Sealey, makes a good drill except for the same problem , I have a small one with proper knee action , much better

Phil

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Hi Phil,

I just looked at the pics of your mill. It looks like a very good, not over-used, or abused, machine. The lack of a quill is sometimes awkward (threading!🙂 ) but most certainly not a deal-breaker! There is now a mill section on the forum, should you wish to check it out and maybe make some input.

Which do you use preferentially, if the workpiece is not too big for your small mill? Like, does the round column make you prefer the dovetailed rise and fall option?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Don't discount a round column mill if it matches your budget as lots of people have done a lot of good work with them. Over on another forum someone in the USA was just saying how he had bought one on offer for only $499. If only we had such prices over here I might buy a second one!

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Here Here – this is what a typical search throws up, nothing about buying a mill:-

Search Results for – mill

Articles View all results in Articles (17)

These articles include the phrase 'mill' within the Title, Standfirst or Keywords

• CNC Milling with MACH 3 – Part 3
• CNC Milling with MACH 3 – Part 1
• CNC Milling with MACH 3 – Part 2

Forums View all results in Forums (1474)

• Slot Milling
• Clarke 500 lathe/mill handbook.
• Mitsubishi Octamil

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

I bought a micro mill SX1L from ARC because it was all I had room for.

Although it is too small for some things I want to machine I have (normally that is) access to a larger mill at the club workshop, but the convenience of one here is great.

I don't think my choice will be the same as yours, but the one thing you need to consider is tooling. While you can start to use a lathe with a single lathe tool and build up from there, with a milling machine you will need workholding, cutters, some way of holding the cutters and so on.

It is easy to equal the cost of a machine if you start to want machine vices, a rotary table, collets, cutters, a boring head, parallels – the list, while not endless, can be very long!

Add on the option of DRO which is possibly more applicable to a mill than a lathe and so on!

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

I think I have a similar situation to Nick Clarke 3 in that the smallest Mill – SX1LP – is as much as I have room for too.

I have a Taig/Peatol lathe so am used to small machines.

I have done some Milling on the lathe and now feel that the next step is a small Mill.

I have read the St. Albans Club advice about Milling tooling. I inherited quite a lot of End Mills and Slot Drills.

Nick – are you entirely happy with your Mill?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Depends how you search and that was even using the poor forum search rather than the one on the home page, searching "articles" of which there are very few on the forum won't give you many useful results unlike looking through the many forum posts.

Dare I suggest beginners take a look at Neil's and my beginners series which will help them choose a lathe or mill and suitable tooling and then explain how to use it

 

A decent round column mill such as an EMCO can do very good work so don't discount one from your choices

Edited By JasonB on 05/05/2020 10:28:26

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Hi MC,

I wont try and recommend a machine as that is a personal choice at the end of the day but you asked for our experience of particular models of small mills so here,s mine.

I bought a Sieg SX2P second hand from a forum member (originally supplied by ARC) it was 12 months old, hardly used and in excellent condition so as new really.

I have had the mill for 18 months and was a complete beginner when I bought it, I am about to move up to a larger mill but that in no way aims anything detrimental at the SX2, its just a size thing and I now want a mill with larger capacity.

So what can I say about the SX2P, well its been 100% reliable and never let me down and it has done all I asked of it. Having said that I dont treat it with kid gloves but at the same time I dont push it to where its not happy. It is a 500 watt variable speed brushless motor and at times it has surprised me with what its capable of. It is not perfect it has its faults but you learn to live with those and appreciate its good points and thats the same with all small hobby mills.

With most of the hobby machines you can make some improvements and add some mods which improve the performance and make them more user friendly. I changed the head balance spring to a gas strut, added a switch to give it reverse, fitted a budget spindle speed indicator and fitted a 3 axis DRO set, but you dont have to do any of that, its a quite a usable machine straight out of the box.

So that is my experience of the SX2P, hopefully others will give you their thoughts on other small mills.

Ron

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Very many thanks to everybody who has sent their comments.

I was aware that there was fair choice of machines and I have heard of (in no particular order) Warco, Chester, Arc, Axminster.

It would be helpful if any readers could point me at other suppliers which I missed.

I have noted comments about good service provided by ARC. My recent experience differs! A serial tap that I bought from ARC disintegrated the first time that I used it; I wrote to ARC explaining that I was using Trefolex, reversing frequently to break the swarf, and they were NOT interested because the tap had NOT been used for over a year since I purchased it. I asked if they could suggest what I might have been doing wrong and have NOT received any response. In view of the compliments that I've read about ARC, I'm very disappointed.

With best wishes and thanks again.

MC Black

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

‘Disintegrated”? That seems unusual – they normally just break – usually at an inopportune time – and as a consumable, usually broken by the operator.

Serial taps come in sets, so breaking just an isolated single tap is likely due to improper preparation, poor alignment, cheap quality or some other operator error. Some of my taps only get used for chasing, not making virgin threads because I know their limitations (from experience).

Spending multiple pounds on a fourpence-halfpenny item does not seem like a profitable business and one reply likely cost far more than any profit on that item.

Lastly, would you expect any other supplier to tell you how you are going wrong while using a tap bought a long time ago – likely without receipt and without the evidence of the broken parts for examination? I wouldn’t!

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Thank you "Not done it yet" for taking the time to respond.

When the tap (described as HSS) broke, I expected to have to start making the part again but decided it was worth grabbing the piece protruding with pliers and see if I could extract it first by wiggling.

The part of the tap in the hole just disintegrated into tiny fragments. I still have the rest of it and a record of the Order on my computer.

If I was a supplier, I would be interested in a product that failed in an unusual way.

I have ordered a replacement set from another company.

In contrast, I bought two spare blades for my previous bandsaw from a local company. When I replaced the Bandsaw (because the castings broke), I contacted that company to order a couple of spare blades and asked if they would like the unopened spares back (rather than throw them away). To my surprise and delight, they offered a straight swap and, consequently, now have a customer for life.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 06/05/2020 00:54:21:

…

I have noted comments about good service provided by ARC. My recent experience differs! A serial tap that I bought from ARC disintegrated the first time that I used it; I wrote to ARC explaining that I was using Trefolex, reversing frequently to break the swarf, and they were NOT interested because the tap had NOT been used for over a year since I purchased it. I asked if they could suggest what I might have been doing wrong and have NOT received any response. In view of the compliments that I've read about ARC, I'm very disappointed.

…

I think that's expecting too much! Arc and the other hobby suppliers sell inexpensive tools : there's not much profit in them! If found faulty within the warranty or consumer protection period, the tool is replaced without holding a post-mortem! The guarantee starts when the tool is bought, not when it's first used. Though I've found hobby suppliers moderately helpful, buying from them doesn't include a course of instruction and full back-up service, particularly for easily broken consumables like taps!

All is not lost – the Forum is good at answering "what went wrong" questions. A few possibilities:

1. Tap drill too small. (In amateur service we often use larger than recommended tap holes in order to reduce the work done by the tap; the taps stay sharp longer and are less likely to break.)
2. Tap not straight in the hole. With a hand-tap, very easy to misalign and snap the tap, so it's best to use a tap-stand, milling-machine chuck, or lathe tail-stock to keep the tap straight. Ensuring alignment reduces the chance of breakage enormously.
3. Bad material! Not all metals thread freely and some fight back. Pure Aluminium and Copper are too soft and sticky to thread well. Bronze tends to grip the tap, many metals 'work-harden', that is cutting makes them tougher and harder. Of these, some Stainless Steels are diabolical, starting well but any rubbing whatever makes them harder than the tap! Snap. Cutting compounds like Trefolex help considerably, but they aren't magic.
4. Cheap taps: well-made carbon steel taps are sharp but brittle. Badly made CS taps might be blunt and brittle. HSS taps aren't automatically better, but should be tougher.
5. As always, operator error: turning the tap too much before reversing to break the swarf, allowing swarf to build up sufficient to jamb the flutes, forcing the tap beyond its strength, bad alignment, wrong size tap drill, and not recognising tap is blunt or material problems. Most of my problems are operator error, most evident when I try something new. Reading the books, watching YouTube and taking advice is great, but there's no substitute for experience.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think with something like a tap there are some people in the world who will try it on if they happen to break one (not saying you are one of them) and ARC are wise to this. From previous posts a single reported issue will be noted but may not be acted upon as you may have hoped, if more similar faults come to light then the line may be withdrawn or refunds/replacements offered.

I know of a fairly recent item of tooling added to their range that was found to have a manufacturing fault, all those that had bought one (ARC keep good records) were contacted ( not waiting for any to complain) and offered a number of solutions that the buyer could opt for which I felt were all fair and reasonable.

Edited By JasonB on 06/05/2020 10:20:07

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 06/05/2020 06:45:49:

‘Disintegrated”? That seems unusual – they normally just break – usually at an inopportune time – and as a consumable, usually broken by the operator.

Serial taps come in sets, so breaking just an isolated single tap is likely due to improper preparation, poor alignment, cheap quality or some other operator error. Some of my taps only get used for chasing, not making virgin threads because I know their limitations (from experience).

Spending multiple pounds on a fourpence-halfpenny item does not seem like a profitable business and one reply likely cost far more than any profit on that item.

Lastly, would you expect any other supplier to tell you how you are going wrong while using a tap bought a long time ago – likely without receipt and without the evidence of the broken parts for examination? I wouldn’t!

.

Wow … Thanks for the MasterClass, ndiy

Did you have a long and distinguished career in Customer Support ?

MichaelG.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Ouch. Getting back to the original question… There's nothing wrong with round-column machines, provided that there's a key (or keyway) along the column, to preserve alignment, as the head is moved vertically. The Emco FB-2 is such a one and is a fine, compact machine, and it's said that some of its oriental clones are tolerable. Used ones come up fairly frequently.

Machines without any alignment-preserving feature are an abomination, regardless of whether some occasionally turn out acceptable work.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My Mill/Drill has a round column, so the head is locked very firmly before doing any machining.

The easiest way to break a tap is to bend it whilst in use. (OK, you do get the odd dud! )

To my shame, I broke a M10 tap, and later a M3.5, both through sheer operator error!

For tapping off machine, wherever possible, I use a tapping fixture (mine started life as the pillar for a pistol drill )

Think G H Thomas pillar tool, or the tool offered by ARC.

The tap is held in a 3/8 capacity drill chuck, and the handle, to limit torque, is a short length of 6mm x 2 mm injection pipe.

The tap is presented square to the work, in a small vice, and is not subjected to bending.

So inviting trouble; tap breakages are rare.

But why ALWAYS in the last hole on the final operation?

Newton's Fourth law, perhaps.

Howard

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Ron's point about buying the biggest machine you can is well made. (Unless specialising in miniature work.) Constrained by space and money, one does the best one can.

Chaps often ask which is the best buy, hoping there's a simple market leader providing a well-made reliable machine with all accessories, extended warranty, brilliant customer service and bargain prices. Sadly, there is no such animal! The machines are similar, UK support is similar and prices vary.

Turning questions upside down is often useful: are there machines that should be avoided at all costs? This too is difficult to answer, but I would duck buying a machine direct from abroad, or from an unknown private ebay seller. It's what happens if you get a dud that matters far more than the asking price, accessories, and optimistic advertising. Safer I think to buy from a UK company who cares about their reputation, honours Warranties, and is bound by UK Consumer Protection Law.

With that in mind, almost anyone would do. With the possible exception of Arc Euro, all the vendors have dropped the ball at one time or another. But I've not had a problem with any of the 5 machines bought from Warco, who sorted out a lost in transit item without demur. Chester seem more likely to get a bad press on the forum, but they get good reports as well. Possibly the number of complaints is related to the number of machines sold. Amadeal also get good and bad reviews: as a smaller company, they're probably more vulnerable to intermittent staff issues. Several others about like Tool Co who don't get moaned about much or at all. But I've no experience of them. MachineMart are a box shifter; good in that they often display machines that can be eyeballed, and provide spares support, but don't expect the staff to know anything about machining. They sell it, you buy it, job done. My feeling is their machines are a bit basic, but I've not used one in anger. People do get results from them.

My biggest regret is not getting into the hobby sooner due to working myself into a lather of indecision. Chaps still say Chinese machines are unacceptably bad, or just a kit of parts. Not my experience. Although my machines aren't as well-finished as a Myford Super 7, which itself is inferior to a heavy expensive industrial machine, they do everything I need, which is what matters to me. And what the flip are all those features for? Many may not matter much.

There are some milling machine features I prefer and others I avoid:

• As mentioned round columns are controversial.
• If I had space I'd prefer a knee mill. Lack of space had me buying a WM18 which has a movable quill: not as rigid, but it's OK
• Steel gears may be better than plastic. The jury is out!
• Brushless DC Motors look to be better. My WM18 has a brushed motor, so far no problem with it.
• In theory R8 is superior to MT and is popular in the US because second-hand R8 tooling is common over there. In practice on a UK hobby mill, I don't think there's any advantage to it, especially if your lathe fittings are all MT! Worse, reported recently were problems with a cracked R8 quill because R8 was provided by boring out an MT spindle, leaving it weak.
• DRO on a mill is wonderful, transforms the machine!
• Big is better because it provides more space for work-holding and allows heftier, more rigid, vices and clamps to be used.
• Powered traverse and Z lift are only 'nice to have' in my book.

All vertical mills can be used as precision pillar drills, and all can do precision filing work – edges, grooves, dovetails etc. But in the latter mode, motor power and machine rigidity matter. A small machine won't be a monster metal muncher, but given time it still delivers results.

Basically, choose the size you need, going big rather than small, check prices for tax and delivery, check accessories included and look for offers, and then go for it. Ask the forum if there's a detail that concerns you: it may not matter at all.

Dave

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 06/05/2020 12:41:38:

……. or the tool offered by ARC. ….

Howard

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

While I have read about GHT's pillar tool, I should be most grateful if you would kindly clarify to which tool offered by ARC you refer.

I have taken on board all the advice offered about tapping and hope that future tapping will be problem free.

Will a Drill Chuck, with – I presume – three "jaws", grip a tap that has a square end? My gut feeling is that it will not.

With best wishes and thanks again.

MC

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 06/05/2020 13:19:23:

Will a Drill Chuck, with – I presume – three "jaws", grip a tap that has a square end? My gut feeling is that it will not.

.

It can [and often does in my case] grip the round shank.

Once the tap has been started nice & square, its a simple matter to transfer to the normal wrench.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You grip by the remaining round shank, either tightly if using something like teh GHT or you can simply bring the chuck down around the tap and just nip up the jaws so they rub on the round shank of the tap and then drive the tap with the tap whench also around the round shank, this has the added advantage that teh tap wrench will often slip before you put too much force into the tap.

The latter method is best done straight after drilling the hole while the drill/mills spindle is directly above the hole which gives perfect allignment. Myself I tend to just use a short length of silver steel with a 60deg point turned on one end and a ctr drill hole in the other, this is held in teh drill or collet chuck and the end either goes into a ctr hole on th e end of teh tap if it has one or the chamfered square end of teh tap sits into the ctr drilled hole. To use just apply gentle pressure on teh quill lever easing off whenever you back off the tap which as above is driven by a tap wrench around the round shank

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

MCB 2

My apologies.

I relied on my memory. The #10 catalogue showed such an item, but #11 does not seem to.

Such an tool can be made easily. What is needed is a base with a vertical pillar, and an arm that can slide up and down the pillar, and be locked to it. The outer end of the arm has a bearing / bush through which passes a spindle carrying a drill chuck on the lower end, and a handwheel on the upper end. The spindle is capable of sliding through the arm

The pillar should be "square" to the base, and the two holes through the arm should be parallel to each other.

The drill chuck, having three jaws, grips the round shank of the tap, not the square. This should keep the tap square to the job, and as the tap cuts into the work, the spindle slides through the arm. The handwheel, or short arms of the handle, limit the torque that can be applied. If the tap sticks for any reason, the probability is that it will slip in the chuck jaws, before reaching the point of breaking. being manual, you will have a feel for what is going on.

It does not need to be a high precision device, ordinary sliding fits will suffice.

If you want a photograph of my monstrosity, PM me with an E mail address, and I'll take a picture and send it to you.

Having seen posts while I was typing; in the Mill/Drill, I use a proprietary spring loaded gadget (with male or female ends to suit the particular Tap ) to hold the Tap vertical, and to prevent bending, whilst driving it with a tap wrench in the usual way..

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 06/05/2020 14:14:16

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I'm completely unattached to ARC, but I did recently buy a Sieg SX2.7L after a lot of spreadsheets and research. It's perfect for my needs, and as I bought the starter set with it (which has a fantastic set of clamps for example) I've been able to throw myself into quite a few projects.

I chose to spend my money up front on the bit that would be hard to upgrade later, the large (for its price range) table. If I want to add DRO or power feed later (As I am sure I will) then I can save up for that and install relatively easily.

I had a small issue with the quill DRO so I messaged them and without quibble they put a fresh one in the post.

[Author]

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