Buying a 3D printer, but which one?

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I find with the purple stuff, it goes on as smooth as glass, the second cross coat roughs things up a bit. Not an issue with the white stuff as I recall.

I'll give the regular white stick a go using the wet paper towel cleaning method, it was only the difficulty of cleaning that put me off. I seem to recall it having a very good bond, not even requiring religious cleaning and relaying between less important short prints.

edit,

No, I don't apply it to any more area than I need!

Edited By Russ B on 11/04/2016 18:33:15

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

I used glue stick on the Ultimaker 2, presumably because this was what they recommend. For a laugh I tried once without it and had great difficulty removing the work afterwards.

I later covered the bed with Kapton film (and glue stick) which was a recommendation I picked up from somewhere. I think it helped a bit but of course it's very prone to knicking and tearing – and it's not cheap.

I had a summer student for a while who was happy to mess about with the UM. He went on to buy a Shapeoko. It's not a dual printer / router (although those do exist) but the technology is very similar – Arduino-based and essentially 2D. You might argue that 3D printers are actually 2.5D or less, as the table only moves in small slices in one direction.

ABS was pretty tricky. We experimented with sealing off the enclosure to help the plastic to cool more slowly in a vain attempt to avoid it peeling off the (heated) plate. That wasn't very successful TBH. Also made a new heater block to try to reduce the tendency to overheat and block up. Not very successful either!

Another thing to consider is the firmware. We looked at Marlin as a means of having more options for controlling the myriad parameters, as the UM firmware was proprietary and a little limited in places. Although it's true that Marlin gives you more freedom to fiddle with parameters, the problem is that you are liable to spend weeks of your life fiddling about and never getting anything done.

In the end the impression I got was that when you start trying to go beyond what is already tried and tested you soon end up in the long grass and these machines aren't really terribly robust to start with. Not a great criticism but you need to temper your expectations, even if you decide to design your own.

Murray

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

BTW, John, have you seen TinyG and Chilipeppr? If you are thinking about a 3D printer / router system rather than a full-blown CNC machine, this is a pretty interesting solution.

Chilipeppr seems to have been written by John Lauer. Suspect he may have had something to do with TinyG as well.

TinyG github here.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Mine are pretty tempered Murry. I have been watching some other people's experience with them for some time now. Even when everything seems sorted things go wrong from time to time. I hope to do something about the reliability aspects but expect to spend some time getting setting right. There isn't much guidance about really when it comes to actual printing other than rough temperatures for various materials. That book I mentioned offers very very little help in that respect.

The Shapeoko was an interesting router look at but I don't really expect to achieve the sort of rigidity that seems to have when working on aluminium. Mainly down to the limitations of the materials I can easily get. I have been thinking of arranging it just like that using the same sort of belt tensioning and motor drive set ups but am probably going to conclude that moving the build platform up and down will be my best option for the Z axis.

It seem that the ordinary printer software can be made to route but the curve interpolation isn't really good enough especially for a super light slow approach all down to printing layers.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I had noticed both Murray especially TinyG but think the usual 3d printer set up initially as that should work out of the box in all respects – if I can get the software from the right git sections. Seems there are several for some items according to the book. I'll probably have enough trouble getting good prints. Once that's done maybe look at something else.

The stepper drivers I have ordered would drive motors connected to a number of things. I would have gone even better than these but the price jumps by rather a lot for anything better. I'll probably have to invert a couple of the signals to get it to work with an arduino and maybe add buffers as well,

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 11/04/2016 21:29:57

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Couple more samples arrived:

Black: Zortrax M200 ABS 90microns.

White: Ultimaker 2+ ABS 90microns.

Yellow: Ultimaker 2+ PLA 90microns.

Green: Ultimaker 2+ PLA 90microns Simplify 3D software.

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Today I was able to visit Mach 2016 and see the Ultimaker 2+ next to the Zortrax M200. There is no question that the build of the Zortrax is more superior and solid compared to the Ultimaker. A noticeable difference is the Zortrax uses a ballscrew for the Z plane compared to the Ultimakers lead screw.

Unfortunately the Zortrax is very restrictive on materials and programming settings so the Ultimaker wins on the overall versatility of the machine. If my requirement was to just print ABS prototype parts then I would choose the Zortrax.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Zortrax is very restrictive and expensive. I think my company likes this, less options, less fiddling, it ticks a lot of boxes for them, it may mean we can't experiment with things as much. I printed a semipermeable/filter the other by lowering the extruder to 50% which printed me a sort of rigid mesh. I was trying to set my software up to write dual extruder code (which is did successfully) I then wanted to set one "extruder" to extrude at 50% and the other one at 100%. I then told it to print a block, inside a cage, the block being on the 50% extruder. I then saved the file as gcode text, and replaced all T1 with T0, so all instructions were sent to the same extruder. (I also removed a few of the other settings like wipe and prime etc)

It all worked from the hardware and trickery side of things, but my software refused to recognise 2 different materials and printed both solids with the same material settings, even thought I'd told one to be 50%. I also tried telling it the fillament in second extruder was larger in diameter to get the same effect, but again, it ignored me and used the primary fillament settings.

So a fair anyway, but more to do with my slicer than my printer or programming.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I'm printing some of those Dreamo samples at 90 microns tomorrow in White Verbatim ABS using some different settings

fast 38mins, 75mm/s

medium 43mins, 62mm/s

slow 55min, 50mm/s (this is the normal/fast setting on a regular Cartesian printer)

very very fast, unknown time!! I will run the 75mm/s at 200% speed and 500%, just to see what happens, the printer still won't exceed the maximum jerk/jounce so it might not make much difference

 

The Rostock MAXv2 is well know for it's precision and speed, so we'll put both to the test. It will be interesting to see how the models compare to those from the Ultimaker and Zortrax, and how it looks at silly print speeds!

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Hi Russ,

Looking forward to seeing the Dreamo prints.

Is Backlash in the Z direction an issue? Or during a print does the bed only ever move in one direction…

Mike

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Z only moves in one direction during the print but it is an important movement. If it's slightly over or under you'll end up with either a thin layer, or a fat one. If it continues to be inaccurate then you'll have a more striated finish as well as weak spots in the layers.

As these models are cosmetic, I'll under extrude them by 5%, my normal setting slightly over extrudes as I print working components so I want good layer bonding, I don't mind if the edges splurge out here and there 😋

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

I was fortunate enough to be able to visit a model making lab of the university of Liverpool today. They had 3 Ultimaker's, that I could see, and a very nice Dimension 1200 which was printing a gizmo of some kind. The quality of the print looked fantastic. I did notice the machine doing both up and down movements in the Z plane when moving to different parts of the bed driven by a ballscrew.

The Ultimaker uses a Trapezoidal thread the same as my cnc router which has done a good job.

[Peter Edwards 5Participant @peteredwards5]

It seems the heat has gone out of the 3D printing enthusiasm as people realise that most items are better produced by more traditional means. The definition is quite poor, material choice strictly limited, time to produce and size limitation all count against it, quite apart from the necessity of being able to solid model the part in the first place to produce the STL file. I speak as a Solidworks user. I have often thought of buying a 3D printer, but for acceptable results the cost would be excessive and but for a very few instances you can use other means. Sorry to spoil the party!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> The definition is quite poor, material choice strictly limited, time to produce and size limitation all count against it

The last three of those count against anything produced on my traditional equipment and debatably the first one does as well

Neil

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Sorry, been flat out today, new bedroom furniture has sparked a major reorder of the house!

I might be able to do them at the weekend but it is usually mostly family time.

Have a good weekend folks,

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

They do move the Z axis up and down so usually gravity plays a part. Some use a 4 start 8mm pitch lead screw which should help with that. Some one posted the name of a router. That used a spring to take up play.

This is one of the reasons I have decided to give belts a try on all axis.

John

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[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Hi Peter,

Don't worry you haven't spoilt the party, all opinions welcome! From what I have seen in industry and more recently academia 3D printing (or additive manufacturing as the metal people like to call it) is the future of manufacturing it is just a case of when people get on board.

I agree the surface finish is not great and never will be given the nature of the way in which the layers are applied but this has led to hybrid machines which are now readily available if you have the cash. Also, most parts do not need a good surface finish and looking at some of the sand castings available today this certainly isn't an issue for most.

As you say the biggest stumbling block for most is the CAD and time it takes to draw something up. I also come from a SW background so I can take this part of the process for granted.

The advantage comes when we change are thinking to how to design products to make use of the technology. There is little point 3D printing a CAD model that has been drawn to suit 3 axis cnc machine. But, start thinking hollow structures and intricate undercuts and there are very few conventional ways of doing this.

You can see I have been well and truly sold on the idea

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The only case I have come across of "cooling off" is some one who bought one and seems has nothing they want to make on it so they just made a couple of kiddie type things and then nothing. On the other hand some people just keep coming up with things to make with them and even come to accept the rope like finish high volume fast printing needs. Software – some manage to do all sorts of things with Sketchup such as

A revised new part for this

A moon face clock mostly made on a completely home made printer.

John

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[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

A couple more images from another poster on that site that show what people are doing with 3D printing:

(All-sky camera housing not the dome…)

Project cases:

PCB holder from thingiverse.

 

Ideas keep coming… how about a non-marking plastic micrometer stand clamp.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 15/04/2016 11:03:12

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I came across an interesting comment recently on some one building a laser cutter. Many of the parts could have been made in a number of ways – used 3d printing mainly because the material costs were a lot lower than using metal and unlike machining no need to be there while they are printing.

John

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[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

That was me 😀

Here is my blog post regarding the decision process – most of the parts were pretty simple in design and were designed to be milled or laser cut from sheet acrylic or HDPE.

The cost of the sheet material would have been around £15.00, I could have simply bought the parts for $48.00 + shipping from a forum member in the USA or £2.50 plus a load of time to print them all myself.

Unlike a mill or laser cutter, 3D printers can largely be left to 'do their thing' while you go off and have dinner or go to work, etc. About the worst that can happen is the item becomes unstuck from the bed and you waste a bunch of plastic, the likelihood of it all bursting into flames is pretty low.

The post also talks about some other cost comparisons where using a shop bought item may make more sense, or where the sheer satisfaction of making the item yourself via whatever means outweighs the fact that the shop bought item may be cheaper.

Edited By Timothy Moores on 15/04/2016 12:03:31

Edited By Timothy Moores on 15/04/2016 12:04:29

Edited By Timothy Moores on 15/04/2016 12:12:32

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The ability to easily alter the part and make a new one is also far easier than having to conventionally machine a new version each time.I did some drawings for a member over Xmas, think it ended up at revision F or G as the part was printed and tried it was found tweaks were needed, as quick e-mail and the drawing was altered and the .stl file sent back to print again.

Now these parts would have needed a mould making for each revision as the material was too flexible to machine but with the right flexible fillament could easily be printed out while the person was doing other things.

So in this case printing was better than making convensionally as it was quicker, easier and finding a flexible fillament saved having to make moulds and cast in rubber.

J

 

Edited By JasonB on 15/04/2016 14:31:58

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I suspect that they will be used for prototyping all sorts of things for a very long time. The resin types may be more suitable for some thing but I don't think it will have the same degree of flexibility or cost levels.

John

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[Peter Edwards 5Participant @peteredwards5]

Further to my doubts about 3D printing and spoiling the party, I would like to add that I do believe the method can be very useful, and I would really like to believe I can have one on my desktop so I can print parts out from Solidworks. At the moment the machines don't produce sufficient accuracy – they will improve in the future I am sure.

Claims that 3D printing is the manufacturing of the future are a bit far fetched – mass production??

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Maybe you should watch this video Peter

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO_qdzIZMV8

Also this one

It might interest people who are thinking of buying one as well.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 15/04/2016 16:17:00

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