Buying a 3D printer, but which one?

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

As my son received a code for 20% discount off ebay and our dear old gov is going to do something about Chinese companies warehousing in the UK to keep vat charges down I've just impetuously ordered one

Not sure why but I like the look of it but feel it will need mounting on a decent base. The repraps are reckoned to be the best option at the cheap end by most people that use them. When people build from scratch they have been taken to rather large sizes.

I nearly hit the £50 max discount offered by ebay as well. Only problem really is that I didn't want to buy one yet.

Must add no guarantee or warrantee implied. I picked it on the basis of parts people seem to remake.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 31/03/2016 20:35:04

Edited By Ajohnw on 31/03/2016 20:41:26

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

The form 2 looks very nice but at ~£3k it is exploding the already stretched budget.

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

The prusa I3 looks interesting! John, have you made the purchase?

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

I`m struggling to see how 3D printed parts can be accurate enough to make the bearing blocks, leadscrew housings e.t.c for the machine itself. Does the Ultimaker use 3D printed parts as part of its mechanisms?,

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Michael Checkley on 31/03/2016 20:56:22:

The prusa I3 looks interesting! John, have you made the purchase?

Yes and received an email telling me that they have sold out. That means that there weren't any in the UK at all and bang goes my 20% discount off ebay. Or maybe that is why this has happened. I'd guess not.

They tell me that there will be more in a month and that they will contact me and give me the opportunity to buy one again.

John

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[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Posted by Ajohnw on 01/04/2016 11:44:09:

and bang goes my 20% discount off ebay. Or maybe that is why this has happened. I'd guess not.

I'm sure if you contact Ebay they'll give you anther code. Either that, or you'll get a refund on the full amount and pocket the change?

P.S

DONT make your 3D printer from acrylic or plastic, the limiting factor of a printers speed is the jerk/jounce and anything even remotely brittle will rapidly fatigue! (especially acrylic or prespex)

The best easily available material, is probably hard plastic faced high density fiber board or just ply wood! Some people use steel/aluminium but due to thermal expansion and uneven temperature extremes in different areas of the machine, if you're die hard accuracy, you should avoid steel as things can twist and skew. (The positional accuracy of your average 3D print head is 10-15 microns so it doesn't take much, although it probably doesn't matter for 99%)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Checkley on 31/03/2016 21:00:37:

I`m struggling to see how 3D printed parts can be accurate enough to make the bearing blocks, leadscrew housings e.t.c for the machine itself. Does the Ultimaker use 3D printed parts as part of its mechanisms?,

.

Michael,

Although I do share your misgivings … surely that was the very essence of RepRap

… it's there in the name.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: added hyperlink

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 01/04/2016 12:20:42

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Just to add to that, some printers are designed to be made in plastic, or have plastic components but the way the bearings and motors mount to the frame usually accounts for it, or the base is made from something else and trimmed in plastic etc.

[Steve FParticipant @stevef]

If you are looking for an I3 why not take a look at the Wanhao I3 Duplicator with a steel frame ? Lots of good reviews for under £300

If you just want to put your toe in the waters and have a go to see if its for you. £170 from the UK

Mine is running most days. Brilliant learning experience and has given me an idea of where to go next.(no heated bed)

regards

Steve

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Russ B on 01/04/2016 11:57:42:

Posted by Ajohnw on 01/04/2016 11:44:09:

and bang goes my 20% discount off ebay. Or maybe that is why this has happened. I'd guess not.

I'm sure if you contact Ebay they'll give you anther code. Either that, or you'll get a refund on the full amount and pocket the change?

P.S

DONT make your 3D printer from acrylic or plastic, the limiting factor of a printers speed is the jerk/jounce and anything even remotely brittle will rapidly fatigue! (especially acrylic or prespex)

The best easily available material, is probably hard plastic faced high density fiber board or just ply wood! Some people use steel/aluminium but due to thermal expansion and uneven temperature extremes in different areas of the machine, if you're die hard accuracy, you should avoid steel as things can twist and skew. (The positional accuracy of your average 3D print head is 10-15 microns so it doesn't take much, although it probably doesn't matter for 99%)

My thoughts on that aspect was that it would easy to remake the acrylic parts if needed and no need to remake parts that people often do. That's what I liked about the design. Also the look of the extruder and that it was a boden type design – that might turn out to be unfortunate though.

I could even use the existing parts as templates. Not sure I entirely agree with you on the properties of some grades of acrylic and other things could easily be added to fix various aspects anyway.

One thing for sure on an item like this I probably wouldn't buy off ebay if they offer me one direct. I'd be reminded of certain other suppliers that are never totally sure what will come when things arrive from China.

I am an avid follower of some one called Gina on another forum. I did look at the older Velleman kit but comments from that source put me right off. And then I picked according to my own reasoning – good or bad. I'd have no idea until it was built and working.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/04/2016 12:02:08:

Posted by Michael Checkley on 31/03/2016 21:00:37:

I`m struggling to see how 3D printed parts can be accurate enough to make the bearing blocks, leadscrew housings e.t.c for the machine itself. Does the Ultimaker use 3D printed parts as part of its mechanisms?,

.

Michael,

Although I do share your misgivings … surely that was the very essence of RepRap

… it's there in the name.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: added hyperlink

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 01/04/2016 12:20:42

People often remake parts and other additions on them as soon as they are built. There are rather a lot of people about trying out various ideas on them. The latest idea seems to be to automatically level the platform – always a tricky thing to do and now it looks like it's done in software.

John

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[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Initially the software would use a micro switch or proximity sensor to determine the Z value for the center of the bed – saving alot of messing about, and meaning you could hit print and walk away. Since different bed and extruder temperatures change the Z value quite significantly this was not possible before, each time a feeler gauge would be used to find zero (feeler = a piece of paper who's thickness would be selected in the settings menu)

Now they can take positions in the corners of the bed to see if it's flat, and skew the co-ordinates accordingly (skewing the part as it prints, but it should come out relatively straight once removed from the bed, albeit the layers won't run exactly true to the faces of the part)

They can also now take a range of measurements and account for flatness deviations so they can assure the first layer is pressed down into the bed improving first layer adhesion (which is the biggest single skill and becomes a discipline!)- obviously this means you no longer have a part with a flat base, and all the rest of the layers may even follow suit.

Its really no substitute for and accurate, level and flat bed etc. but for a novice, printing cups and novelty items that "one click" print is more important and and accurate model.

I think I'm beginning to look at 3D printers in 2 categories, precision engineering instruments, and one-click novelty toy creators – with the latter being the more important one for the progression of the technology as a whole. I think the differences are small at the moment but suffice to say that not all 3D printers are equal.

As is continually echo'd – a Heated Bed is a must, but before buying a whole new printer, I recommend doing a little google search for "printer name" & "heated bed upgrade", chances are someone has already done it and the control board already has room for another sensor and a high current PWM spare for the bed. As I said before, if you buy an oversize PSU right from the word go you will probably just need to strap the heater to the bed and and some wires!

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I had gathered that a heated bed is needed. The one I tried to buy had one. The Wanhao looks interesting but as all are coming from China, on ebay anyway that could cost less than £200. Confusion on G-Code and STL for me though. Does it do both and etc. That area I haven't really sorted out, just looked to see what is around.

The precision engineered aspect had already struck me. This is why I started thinking pick one with the maximum number of good looking bits. Taking the acrylic frame for instance. Looking at it there wouldn't be much of a problem band sawing them out of aluminium plate or sections and using the acrylic ones as a guide for a router to finish them off. Do too much though and a self build would make more sense.

I have a feeling that the only really in the UK ones on ebay are these

**LINK**

I have come across one of the other types of "companies", now midland based, was B'ham before who advertise under several names even on the web and I am pretty sure get things in to order from some where. There seems to be a few more like that.

 I just noticed that all but one of the ones I tried to order have now gone !!!!!!!!!

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 01/04/2016 22:16:44

Edited By Ajohnw on 01/04/2016 22:17:39

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 01/04/2016 22:13:01:

I have a feeling that the only really in the UK ones on ebay are these

**LINK**

.

That looks very promising, John

MichaelG.

.

I think you should buy one, and review it for the benefit of he community

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Thanks a bunch Michael.

That looks like one that has parts made reprap style. If you want to see the sort of precision they can achieve take a look through this series of video's.

**LINK**

He does have problems but not the ones people might suspect. Long chatty video's but they do bring out some problems with them. Settings being one when he makes parts for the one he is building. Also the software used.

John

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[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

It is very tempting to get a kit and tweak it during the build but I know if I start this I will spend my time making the machine and not making the parts I need. Not necessarily a bad thing and I enjoyed both my CNC conversion projects but my enthusiasm is currently directed to the RC projects I have on the bench at the moment.

On Friday I was seconds away from pressing the buy button on an Ultimaker 2 Plus. I contacted a few suppliers to see if I could get a discount or something thrown in but general response was they were not that bothered if they made a sale or not. In the end I was persuaded to wait until some samples were sent out to compare the Ultimaker to the Zortrax M200. I`m happy to wait and see the samples but I really like the freedom the Ultimaker gives with both settings and materials and looking forward to trying the carbon reinforced filament.

Still have the weekend to research some more…

[Steve FParticipant @stevef]

I was looking at the Zortrax M200 last week in a shop. It was a nicely made piece of equipment. It look more like a proper engineering job. I think it had Linear Bearings but also Ball Screws which I had not seen before. I could be wrong but was dazzled by the machines in the shop.

One ting I noticed. It was single extruder only. Dual extruder would be better to print dissolvable support material from the other nozzle.

Have you looked at the Flashforge Dreamer ? Looks like a microwave oven so is all enclosed with extractor fans.

I never wanted to build a printer but just wanted to design stuff and print it. I was not to bothered about the mechanics of the printer. That's why I bought the Fabrikator mini. Open the box followed the small instruction leaflet and started printing straight away. I have tweaked the settings a bit now I know where to start. It is only 80 x 80 x 80 build volume with no heated bed but very good results in PLA for the price and it runs every day.

I am now looking to go bigger. Flashforge Dreamer may be my next

regards

Steve

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

The M200 looks very nice, but its minimum layer heigh is 90 microns, vs 20 of the ultimaker, and my Rostock Max.

As you lot may have no doubt worked out, I've spent quite a bit of time 3D printing. I think my next chunk of money, is go towards a CEL Robox. Its neat, tidy, is UK born and bred, and comes with features that unlike the Ultimaker/M200 and others who shout quite loud, are ACTUALLY something very different and not just, the same as every other respectable 3D printer.

First and foremost, the spools have a reprogramable EEPROM chip, so all settings for that material (diameter, print temp, bed temp, print speed, retraction and so on I guess) are stored on the spool. They also don't tie you to their own brand fillament, you can use anything if you want.

The enclosed nature of the design makes it a temperature controlled environment (no open top like the M200)

The standard head on the is a dual nozzle like no other I;ve ever seen (single material!). It has a 0.8 Nozzle, and a 0.3 nozzle – so it can rapidly build up strong 0.8 layers, but still do fine and delicate detailing. Assuming it can use both at the same time, you could print a part with a strong 0.8 layer core, and go for a finer 0.3 detail on faces!

The minimum layer heigh is 20 microns, same as the Ultimaker/Rostock Delta (The Zortrax M200 is only 90, ive never seen one this high)

The max temperature is 300deg C which is extremely heigh.

It feautres quick change print heads, so the standard dual nozzle single material head can be easily swapped for a dual material dual heater/nozzle head (one material per nozzle, independent heaters)

They have 17 dealers in the UK (including themselves, Currys/PC world, Maplin, RS components, Farnells and more)

Features auto bed levelling and so on.

It does feature a Bowden Tube but it is very short so not that critical, they have just created a new feed system that greatly improves feeding of soft materials and reduces wear with abrasive materials. My Rostock's Bowden tube is huge due to the monumental 375mm build height so it is an extremely long Bowden tube.

Unlike printers like the Ultimaker, Rostock, M200, the Robox has bespoke mainboard running an Atmel processor and custom firmware. Thus it's not just a remix, of a remix, of something you could just build yourself for half the price!

Being so bespoke, it isn't bound by the normal rules, and its heated bed takes just 3 minutes to hit 130 degrees – I can leave my Rostock running for an hour and it will barely scrape past 110. It normally take around 10-15 minutes to warm up.

Interestingly, the build surface requires no maintenance and hardly any cleaning (I have to clean mine between every print or risk failure which spoils and hour or 5's printing!)

The only draw back, is the build height, which is only 100mm!!!!!!!!!!!! But all of the things I've printed now, I know this wouldn't be a problem

SO …………. does anyone want to buy a 3D printer with a whopping 375mm heigh build space, my Rostock Max V2! comes with a full set of nozzles and is setup ready to go!!

Edited By Russ B on 02/04/2016 15:50:28

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

After a bit of a web chat with Gina who does rather a lot of 3D printing I have to start wondering if a self build is a better option. That way it can be tailored to needs. Initially I discounted it but the V rail here was mentioned

**LINK**

It's also on ebay but it looks like they provide a precise cutting facility if anyone needs that. They also show a lot more fittings for it. Quality may vary as well, hard to say.

It seems it's a better option than linear guides. Adjustable plates carrying the rollers would be very easy to make.

A number of people have been playing with using a type of fishing like called braid instead of toothed belt. It driven via a drum with clock and anti clockwise turns on it and a simple pulley at the other end.

John

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[Russ BParticipant @russb]

 

John, my Rostock is on rails.

I have a set of 3 slides which basically consist of 3 bearings with "tyres" on, 2 fixed on one side, and the opposing one adjustable (it's shaft is a cam). They provided me no end of trouble. Rarely, these this crash (often, good old operator error!) and when they do, they knock the cam and it all goes pear shaped.

I have now fitted the latest revision hardware package from SeeMeCNC which removed these are replaced them with injection moulded 4 bearing slides, with the 2 adjustable bearings being attached to either end of a plastic leaf type spring (pretty/very firm) which pivots obviously in the middle.

This was a fantastic upgrade, I'm sure the same principal can be made in metal/plastic without the use of injection moulding.

Edited By Russ B on 02/04/2016 16:18:49

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I do have some leaf spring somewhere. A nice thought but my gut reaction was to use 4 rollers. Need to think about 3.

The rails look very interesting and ease a number of build problems while providing rigidity as a bonus. Also if built round a box type arrangement easy to case. Acrylic is pretty good at reducing noise levels – at least true perspex from ici was.

It seems the problem with the usual guides is that they get muck in them and get messed up. Seals go etc and I have seen mention of sewing machine oil in a kit.

Help – I've even found I can buy a piece of 300x200mm borosilicate but have yet to figure out the best way to make a low thermal mass hot bed without buying a plate heater.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Russ B on 02/04/2016 16:18:00:

John, my Rostock is on rails.

I have a set of 3 slides which basically consist of 3 bearings with "tyres" on, 2 fixed on one side, and the opposing one adjustable (it's shaft is a cam). They provided me no end of trouble. Rarely, these this crash (often, good old operator error!) and when they do, they knock the cam and it all goes pear shaped.

I have now fitted the latest revision hardware package from SeeMeCNC which removed these are replaced them with injection moulded 4 bearing slides, with the 2 adjustable bearings being attached to either end of a plastic leaf type spring (pretty/very firm) which pivots obviously in the middle.

This was a fantastic upgrade, I'm sure the same principal can be made in metal/plastic without the use of injection moulding.

Edited By Russ B on 02/04/2016 16:18:49

Any chance of a good photo of the updated bearings Russ. Just for ideas on how to arrange it.

Moving from 3 rollers to 4 is interesting. It rings a bell on something similar where very slight waviness in the guide caused problem with 3. 4 just has to cope with variations in width between the rollers. Rather a long time ago so hazy and based on something some one else was working on.

Currently pricing a frame for it. Looked good until I priced corner joints. Tricky to make properly and £6 a piece for 3 way corner joints.

John

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[Russ BParticipant @russb]

John,

All the information is freely available from SeeMeCNC (who make my printer) including the DXF's for the laser cut parts, the construction manual and full specs info on everything, which covers every step of the build in high detail, the control board and links to all the software for configuring and uploading the firmware, the software to actually generate the Gcode from files for the printer to use (it can also control the printer directly and live via USB but I print from SD)- literally everything

This the injection molded carriages, at the bottom of the description is a link to the "How to" guide for upgrading existing rev 2 machines,. **LINK**

Please note, in the photo's they show the new injection molded carriages with the old universal joint arms, do not use UJ's, they can't handle the shock and quickly wear out (mine went after a few months) I have a full set of arms, and 3x 3 bearing "cheap skates" which are the old cam carriages and set of 12 brand new spiders for the UJ's plus the injection molded effector platform gathering dust – if you want them to get you going on a self build make me an offer if you like – just add the 1" X section vertical columns and fabricate your own base and top, and you've got a delta CNC ready to accept an extruded heated bed, a controller and some stepper motors and you're away – all the information you need to configure and bring your pile of silicone chips and hardware is on the SeeMeCNC construction manual.

The old 3 bearing cam type carriage can be seen in the rev 1 and 2 version of the construction manual (across the top of the page above, there are tabs "products" "Shop" etc etc hover over "Downloads" and you'll find the user manual, the open source files, a SeeMeCNC branded version of "Matter Control" (I moved on to Repitier Host once I gained experiance but the GUI on Mattercontrol and the hints and tips are great if you've never 3D printed before)

Anyhow, you can get lost for hours in all that. enjoy.

Edited By Russ B on 05/04/2016 12:04:28

Edited By Russ B on 05/04/2016 12:13:20

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Thanks Russ. The spring arrangement is the same as my thoughts. The software could be useful too if it can also be set up for the usual x y z arrangement. I'd rather use that as I have a feeling that there may be a rather sexy engraver buried in it if the extruder is replaced with something else. I doubt if the software that is in it can cope with the 4th axis needed to make it really sexy though.

When ever the printers are mentioned for that sort of use people immediately rabbit on about Mach3 and millers. Misses the point in my view.

John

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[Russ BParticipant @russb]

John,

You can have an engraver and I've seen tool changers and also ceramic extruders for 3D printing just about anything with the right consistency.

There is a simple way in MatterControl and Repitier Host to modify the startup and end task Gcode as well as how it handles warm up procedures etc.

I plan to a short stiff wire bush at the edge of the before a job it will heat up off the bed, extrude a certain amount to get things going, then wipe over the bush, lower diagonally to 0.05mm above the bed and then begin the job.

I noticed the CEL Robox has a build platform with tiny holes in it that doesn't require removing and cleaning between jobs.

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