Buying a 3D printer, but which one?

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

I have been researching 3D printers on and off for some time and every time I come back to my search the market has expended some more. The Ultimaker 2 keeps coming out top of the online reviews so should it be an easy decision and this is the 'best' one to buy?

My original plan was to limit the spend to £1000 and the printers that have shown most promise in this range are the lulzbot mini and the UP plus 2. The application for parts is model helicopter scale components, prototyping RC components such as rotor heads and multicopter parts. Then, another spanner has been thrown in with the opportunity to have a go at making patterns for castings for RC engines.

So, Which 3D printers are people using with the most success?

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Check out 3DHubs, it's probably the biggest single resource for printer reviews (by far) and has clear categories (enthusiast, plug'n'play,DIY kit,budget)

https://www.3dhubs.com/3d-printers

I got a Rostock MaxV2 which comes out on top in the DIY kit build and also the best sub $1000 (which equals £1000 with shipping and VAT to Europe)

As the reviews state, it's the fastest printer you can buy reducing a large print to say 12 or less hours where a Cartesian might take 16 or more.

Significant improvements have been made regarding accuracy since the reviews started – basically they switched from UJ's (inherently innacurate at translating motion, plus backlash issues) to twin opposing ball and cup joint, giving a much greater surface area for shock loads (reducing wear) and as/if they wear, they're sprung together and so take up and lash.

When people refer to the quality as being lower that a Cartesian they could just slow the speed down to match a Cartesian!

It does have to be setup and assembled well, there is no bed levelling feature, and any imperfections in the vertical alignment of the columns results in triangulation errors (for any Delta printer) so they can be very innacurate if not properly assembled and on a level base (no provision is made in the feet to level sadly, if I rebuilt it, I would add levelling feet, they're just 1/4" screws through the base with a rubber foot so easily changed really)

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Overall, the accuracy is there, but its a delicate instrument. Most Cartesian printers could be picked up and sat down anywhere (floor, desk, grass outside) and they'd require no adjustments, they'd just do there thing. A Delta as large as the Rostock Max doesn't have the rigidity and needs to be accurately setup.

I would rather have a smaller printer (I don't mind/prefer to built it myself) that is more automated, (bed levelling, no bowden tube, maybe multiple extruders, and the real winner, is anything with a heated enclosure or an easily modified to become heated enclosure – due to someone patenting the heated enclosure)

What ever you do, don't buy one that doesn't have a heated bed, your parts like anything with a temperature differential of over 100°C, will warp!

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Try to find a Makerspace/Fablab near you and have a look and play with their various models to see what suits you. Even here in the back of beyond there is a Fablab where you can go and use one of a range of machines for €2/half hour with free help and advice.

Russell.

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Thankyou for the information so far. I restarted my search for a 3D printer after seeing the Fisher Delta being demonstrated at the BMFA nationals. I was close to purchasing and probably would have done on the day if he had had kits with him but they didn't and after some research I found it did not have a heated bed and was therefore put off.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Yes, a heated bed is a must but at £249+VAT the Fisher Delta is an incredible bit of kit!

As Delta printer get smaller, their strength and rigidity increase, while the length of the arms etc decrease so alignment errors are much less likely, and much less severe. Thus if you're looking at Delta's as compact as that, I wouldn't worry about the issues typically associated with them.

It comes with the Duet control board which is excellent. It features a processor powerful enough to translate the Cartesian system in to delta movements with plenty of processing power left over for a second extruder and other fancy trimmings. I have a RAMbo 1.3 and its 2560 processor is pretty much flat out, on very rare occasions I'm sure i SEE it slowing down round curves if the resolution is to high while the processors races to translate all the movements – This may limit me in the future if I wish to upgrade or expand.

Given it's price, and its electrical control package – it's a hell of a starter kit especially if you have the facilities and skills to modify/make your own heated base.  I would recommend Onyx branded heaters for flatness

Do think ahead when purchasing a power supply if you go down this or a similar route (contact the seller, he can probably supply you a larger than stock one, or not supply anything and knock a few ££ off, you might need as much a 100w or more for a bed heater which will probably double your peak power output)

I've got a cheap 450w ATX power supply housed "hours" deep inside my 3D printer and I really need to upgrade it because I'm seeing voltages as low as 11v on the 12v rail measured at source with just a few hundred watts of load.

Edited By Russ B on 30/03/2016 13:23:54

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Michael, see if you can search out Andrew Johnston's thread about his Ultimaker2, he did a lot of tests and reported back about accuracy, sufrace texture etc. I have seen his in action and it's a nice compact machine and looks a lot more professional than some of the ones that look like they were made with Mecano/Lego/ Fisher Technic.

Also whats your 3D drawing like as its only going to be as useful as the part you give it to make. I have drawn up a few bits for members here who have printers but are not totally upto speed with the drawings.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Maybe setting a price range would be helpful?

Ultimaker 2 is £1176 and I'd recommend one over my Rostock Max V2 for simplicity and accuracy.

Fisher Delta is £299 – its got a very advanced control board capable of powering the very largest and most complex of home 3D printers and also is also expandable.

You could have a small production line of Fishers for the price of one Ultimaker!

[Mike ClarkeParticipant @mikeclarke87958]

Hi Michael,

I did a lot of research a few months ago on 3D printers (i.e. what I could get for what I wanted to spend).

I ended up getting a BQ Hephestos 2. If you wanted something more "commercial", then they offer a more expensive model called the Witbox 2.

Can't recommend my printer – or BQ enough. Very impressed with the results. I will be adding a heated bed, but for now with PLA I have not missed it.

Regards,

Mike

Edited By Mike Clarke on 30/03/2016 14:37:14

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

I didn't set a budget in stone but initially tried to keep the cost to below £1000. What I want to avoid is having to upgrade once I have progressed on to more advanced projects. I think trying to achieve good quality scale parts for RC helis may dictate a higher performing machine.

There has been some brands mentioned above that I have not yet looked in to so another evening of researching ahead!

First project would be prototyping my flybarless rotor head for a Vario Turbine Huey I`m building. Then quickly after that will be multirotor parts.

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Is Andrew Johnston's Ultimaker2 thread on here?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Checkley on 30/03/2016 19:47:35:

Is Andrew Johnston's Ultimaker2 thread on here?

.

Michael,

I think it was part of this thread:

**LINK**

MichaelG.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Michael C,

I don't know if your expecting these parts to do any serious work or if you have any experience of working with parts printed with the FDM method (vs SLS parts)

But if you do, and you havent…. I would say you're going to want a printer than can print accurate, strong parts so.

– A temperature controlled enclosure is a must (you will likely have to DIY this in any case as its patented)

– You will also want to get an extruder capable of 260degC minimum (so no PEEK or PTFE insulators, PTFE liners may be ok)

– Avoid Bowden Tube Extruders (so basically NO delta printers) – when very well setup they can perform but generally ooze and require different retraction settings for different fillament brands/colours even room temp and humidity – reality is they only can only perform so well. They also tend not to print flexible rubber filaments.

As a side not, I'm not sure the printer you need will exist and I wouldn't get hung up on finding one if it doesn't exist, as you might find yourself with an obscure model that no one can help with, its very common for people to buy a 3D printer of high quality and then make or buy upgrades, the physical side of the machine is very straight forward and the electrical side is a breeze, the open source "one for all" controllers are extremely powerful, much more so than say a one of machine specific mass produced unit which may be a "Black box" somewhat locked out to the owner.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Sorry I didn't explain the temperature requirement.

The 260deg is for printing Nylon, it is very strong and especially in 3D printing as the bond between layers is much better than ABS or PLA. Thus its excellent for thin sections.

Most printers are limited to just over 240deg so an "all metal" hot end upgrade may be the only way forward, but I'd bet a pound to penny, a kit exists for just about every mainstream machine out there.

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Hi Russ,

The majority of parts I would like to make will be non load bearing and prototype mechanism parts will just be for fit checks and geometry checks and would never fly. The multirotor parts are for small light weight models so strength is less of an issue.

On the subject of strength it would be interesting to test components printed with different layer orientations and feed these results in to an FEA package for analysis.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I'm not entirely sure you can easily manipulate the the layer orientation but if you can think it, someone's probably already done it!

I printed a hoover attachment and it was great, till I accidentally stepped on it, and it squashed like a prawn cracker. I reprinted it with the same double wall and square infil pattern to save time/plastic/waste which is standard practice but I made the part thinner, 3.5mm down to about 2mm I think.

The end result was a much stronger part, so strong I can now bounce all my weight on it (I actually hurt my foot trying) I think the hollowness and distance larger between the outer skin allowed it to fold like a house of cards.

If you've not done any 3D printing already….. I would recommend you download a copy of Repitier Host and "make up" some print settings – the standard/default settings will do, setup a 0.3 nozzle, and 0.15 layer height (you will probably work between 0.1 and 0.3 as your fine and coarse layer heigh, for me, 0.35 is fine, 0.7 is coarse). I use CuraEngine for slicing (I think it gives me smoother results, I like the way it handles features, it has less options that some other slicers but I like it – do try them all when/if you get going and compare a test part)

You can then place a .STL file on the 3D virtual bed (just drag and drop), rotate, scale position it where you want it and get the software to "slice" it, and you can preview estimated print times and fillament length used (a 1kg reel is about 350-400 meters at 1.75mm), You can slide through the layers and see it being build in virtual reality and see inside it. You'll probably spend a day fiddling like this to get familiar before you actually hit the print button.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Send me a model if you want a couple of examples printing and posting for nothing (and I'll know who to bother should I ever need a replacement part printing for my machine that's taken it out of order )

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Hi Russ, I was thinking more of printing parts in different orientations to check the strength as the strength between layers is reported to be weaker.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Michael, yes it's just like softwood, you have to use the grain to your advantage. You also have to avoid having large surface area's touching the bed as it increases the chance of failure due to warping (like a glass sucker, once one corner lifts, it can become unstuck) – therefore some objects that you would like to lay sideways to make best use of the grain, are much easier to print vertically and sometimes, can only be printed vertically.

There are many variables to consider when assessing strength including where you got the materials from and what batch they came from – there are no standards in 3D printing materials so you never quite know what else gets thrown in there. In addition, due to the complex nature of polymers, you don't quite know how the chains of molecules have been disturbed or broken down by the processing of making or recycling plastic for the filament, and then by reheating and extruding onto your bed.

I think the future of 3D home printing is SLS which eliminates the grain and enables completely unsupported geometry (but it does not support hollow printing, parts have to be solid unless the un sintered powder can be extracted/washed out.

 

Edited By Russ B on 31/03/2016 09:58:02

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

Has anyone used a RepRap Prusa i3 printer. (Pros / Cons, etc)

Available as a kit or fully assembled. Lots of replacement parts available on %-bay

Paul.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Odd place to look Pail but if you go to stargazerslounge.com in the DIY section and search out printer and also posts by some one that goes by the name of Gina who has several printers I think you will get a good idea of what they can do.

My impression is that maybe the most important aspect is settings. People also print new parts for the machines.

My impression of them is that they are ideal for making patterns for castings and other bits and pieces as needed.

John

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[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

My limited experience with the 3D printing world is that it can be split into two parts – those machines that are kits and require time, effort and a stream of upgrades and eventually become a project in their own right and the commercially available models that are ready to print more or less out of the box.

Your choice can also be tempered by your experience – if you buy a kit then you will have the construction side to achieve (and many kits are not 'production' quality) as well as the learning curve on the printer settings if you open source slicing software as well as the learning curve on 3D CAD to create the files to print in the first case.

At least with the out-of-a-box solution, you can expect the printer will operate with minor adjustments (getting the print platform level primarily) and maybe the software is bundled and therefore avoids some of the open source issues.

My own choice was slightly random but partly made thanks to JS who mentioned his own 3D printer – which is an UP! which comes with its own slicer software with most settings pre made and their own brand of filament to keep control over the quality. I still had to understand how to get everything level, to make the plastic stick and a myriad of other issues as well as the 3D CAD learning curve.

Nonetheless I would recommend a commercial printer (mine was 2nd hand) just to get to the point where you are actually printing things – not trying to work out which of the electro-mechanical, electronic or software parts of your printer is not right…

Best of luck though, I have found mine to be immensely useful as you may be able to see form the article of mine published in a recent MEW.

Simon

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Simon,

Many (the best in my opinion) are half way between the 2. My kit was made by SeeMeCNC, all the lasercut parts were spot on and they supply parts they know and trust (rather than just any unbranded stuff from anywhere that has the right part number)

On the controls side, I would recommend a known all in one like the Duet (I will upgrade mine eventually) or the RAMbo for Cartesian printers which is what I have know. The rambo features everything you could want, but only just has the processing power when attempting to translate cartesian coordiantes to delta movements and then do all the normal 3D printer controls on top – I will keep the board and use it for a CNC router/mill (its an all in one full featured 5 axis controller with inclusive step motor drivers et al after all!!) or more likely use it for a cartesian 3D printer

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Things have moved on a bit since I got an Ultimaker 2 for my place of work about 3 years ago. It was pretty good at the time but I have to say it was rather fiddly and took a lot of fettling of the settings, particularly with ABS (heated bed required). It wasn't outrageously reliable either, being prone to the spool tangling up so it ended up printing air. I suspect it was one of the better ones out there at the time but certainly wasn't professional grade ie something you'd want to rely on to bash parts out.

If you are feeling reasonably flush, why not consider something like this. It's a proper SLA printer. There are various resins available for it, including "tough" (very), castable (leaves no ash) and flexible (tactile). I don't have any direct experience of it myself but from what I've heard it's pretty interesting and doesn't seem to cost much more than we paid for the UM2.

More options here.

 

Edited By Muzzer on 31/03/2016 15:30:59

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