Burrell 2” Gold Medal Tractor

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

Hi all.

I first joined this forum back in 2019 when I was seeking advice on machine tools for my shop for a certain project.

I am now in a position to do what of always wanted to do – build a live steam engine.

A 2” Burrell Gold Medal Tractor (produced by MJ Engineering) came up on flea bay which seemed an ideal project (most of castings and plans set).

I am just in process of familiarising myself with what’s in there and what’s not.

I contacted Alan at MJ Engineering with a view to purchasing a boiler kit but was sad to learn he has stopped supplying boiler kits because of complication with CE marking etc. and his recommendation was to buy a commercial boiler from Western Steam.
However, making the boiler is something I really want to do so I have started researching and compiling the information to do this and already have some questions for this forum which I will post shortly. I have already read on this and other forums enough to realise that boiler building and more particularly certifications are a bit of a minefield , but that adds to the challenge doesn’t it?

I am aware I will need the input from my local club boiler inspector, and emailed my local(ish) club at Banbury on Monday but as yet have had no reply. Are they still active?

Graham

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You should be able to get all the copper for the boiler from one of the ME suppliers like Macc, Blackgates, etc

Do get your inspector to cast an eye over the drawing first in case anything needs updating rather than just build to drawing and then have to change things.

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

A little mystery: with the plan set I bought was two folders. All the parts had been hand drafted on A4 lined paper at a smaller scale – a tremendous amount of work! The chap I brought them from – Ben who is very much involved with full size steam engines – bought them from someone about 15 years ago – and didn’t know why this had been done.

As an old time draughtsman and more latterly design engineer (retired) I appreciate just how much work was involved in this.

I can only think this may have been the old version of what I am doing right now – modelling it in 3D CAD to “get the parts into your head”, or that it was just to have workshop sized drawings rather than having the A0 drawings laying around.
or is there another explanation?

Any thoughts or is this jogging someone’s memory?

Graham

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

Thanks Jason

Macc doesn’t stock this size but will contact Blackgate.

seems to be a bit of odd size on this engine 3 3/4” O.D x 13 swg copper, if Blackgates don’t stock it looks like it will be rolled tube with butt strap…

Graham

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Nothing wrong with rolled with butt strap, will be cheaper than tube as well.

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

Posted by Baz on 26/08/2022 12:38:35:

Nothing wrong with rolled with butt strap, will be cheaper than tube as well.

thanks for that Baz, and very good point about being cheaper, specially with price of copper!
Have you or anyone else experience of rolling copper at this thickness (3/32&rdquo?

I’ve looked at making a set of “George Thomas” type rolls, but not sure wether his original design would be up to this thick walled tube even allowing for annealing. Most commercial Hobbiest type rolls I’ve seen are for round about 1mm thick sheet.

push comes to shove I’ll try one of the local sheet metal companies to roll it for me (have also asked Blackgates for a price….just like to do as much as possible of the work myself for the satisfaction of doing it
Graham

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

If it is near to you Keatleys Shadwell Street Birmingham might be a possibility 0121 236 4300

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 26/08/2022 14:00:25

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 26/08/2022 14:01:43

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

Thanks for suggestion Nick.

I’m Oxfordshire (near Chipping Norton) so too far!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Graham Williams 12 on 26/08/2022 10:23:25:

A little mystery: with the plan set I bought was two folders. All the parts had been hand drafted on A4 lined paper at a smaller scale – a tremendous amount of work! The chap I brought them from – Ben who is very much involved with full size steam engines – bought them from someone about 15 years ago – and didn’t know why this had been done.

As an old time draughtsman and more latterly design engineer (retired) I appreciate just how much work was involved in this.

I can only think this may have been the old version of what I am doing right now – modelling it in 3D CAD to “get the parts into your head”, or that it was just to have workshop sized drawings rather than having the A0 drawings laying around.
or is there another explanation?

Any thoughts or is this jogging someone’s memory?

Graham

Both good reasons Graham, but another strong possibility it was done to check the drawings for mistakes as these have been a problem in model plans from before Percival Marshall was a twinkle in his dad's eye! Various reasons:

1. The draughtsmen's training was highly inconsistent; anything between tidied up back of an envelope to professional work, but possibly done in retirement to obsolete standards.
2. Drawings were rarely thoroughly checked by others before publication. It's hard for amateurs and pros working from home to arrange proper review, and there's no formal authorisation process. It's extremely difficult to spot your own mistakes – we see what we expect to see!
3. Once issued there is no version control. Over the years many drawings have been copied and amended by different people at different times. They corrected some old mistakes, missed others, and added new ones! It's a muddle.
4. There's no standard way for mistakes to be catalogued or corrected. Be nice if mistakes made by LBSC up to a century ago had all been nailed down, but no – they're catching people out.

In short, a serious uncorrected quality management problem caused by not following the full engineering process. Hardly surprising as Model Engineers are disparate hobbyists, not a disciplined team of well trained and consistent experts! Fixing all the bad plans at this late stage would need someone determine and energetic to organise a CAD group to clean up by recreating the designs in 3D, operating strict peer review, and then version control.

So if I have any doubt about a plan, I redraw it to make sure I understand it and to flush out errors. Very often, a few dimensions will be missing or wrong, and sometimes more serious mistakes creep in, like interferences.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

MJ Eng drawings are some of the better ones and actually get revised, there is also a section on their website for any drawing queries though none listed for the GMT

Bloke probably did not have access to a photo copier to make a set of workshop drawings.

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

Dave, agree with everything you have said there.

Jason, that’s good to know. So far I have been very impressed with the drawing’s.

Graham

[Graham Williams 12Participant @grahamwilliams12]

The last revisions on my set of drawings were 1978 giving some idea as to their age, so may have been a few changes I don’t know about. Any help would be appreciated.

Graham

[Author]

Posts