Build threads.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Bandersnatch,

very clever point with which i dont disagree, except to say that perhaps a bit of pruning of dead wood produces a healthier tree.

cheers,

julian

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Posted by julian atkins on 14/11/2015 02:04:25:

Bandersnatch,

very clever point with which i dont disagree, except to say that perhaps a bit of pruning of dead wood produces a healthier tree.

cheers,

julian

Fine in principal Julian but I think you'd have a hell of a job getting a consensus from the membership as to who should be allowed to operate the pruning shears! The beauty of our "tree" is that we all see it from different perspectives and we all have access to our own personal shears in that we can prune, ie ignore, the bits that we don't want to see.

Returning to the topic of this thread, I really enjoy following build threads, I learn new or alternative techniques from them and can appreciate the workmanship when seeing the finished component. However I don't give a toss where I read them, be it on this site, other sites, magazines or books. If this site doesn't have what I'm looking for I'll look elsewhere but I'll still use this site for the countless other bonuses I get from it.

Regards Martin.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by julian atkins on 13/11/2015 23:36:27:

you ignore that fact that since 1924 this hobby has been principally driven by building miniature steam locomotives. Percival Marshall realised this when LBSC started describing the construction series of dear old 'Ayesha', and sales went through the roof. this was the first ever proper construction series in ME of anything. ok, call it a 'build thread' if you like!

Sadly, and I really do say this with sadness, my experience of meeting and talking with model engineers and visiting several clubs I think the 'golden age of live steam' is drawing to a close, if it has not already ended.

The main barrier is the sheer cost of building or having a copper boiler built built. A Rob Roy boiler kit is £350, for the copper alone and nearly £1,000 for a finished boiler. Choose Rob Roy as about the smallest live steam loco that isn't Tich. Many new entrants to the hobby are budgeting that range of prices for setting up their workshops.

Also, even people of my vintage (in my fifties) have only a vague recollection of mainline services hauled by steam. Many builders choose non-steam prototypes from preference, not because it saves them having to build a boiler.

As a first time loco builder, I chose a small battery-electric design. I would have loved to build a Tich or Rob Roy, but with a family both time and cash are considerations. It would be nice to build a steam loco, but for some reason having started with a 'diesel' my plans keep veering towards a battery powered design in a larger gauge instead. I'm sure that others find themselves in a similar position.

The truth is that unless someone can come up with a cost-effective source of safe, reliable boilers live steam locos are going to increasingly become a minority interest.

I do keep banging on that under Percival Marshall ME was vastly more than a loco-builder magazine. It led the way for many hobbies – boat building, model aircraft, hobby electronics, clockmaking, photography (dare I add telescope making) which now have their own magazines and forums.

These days, would a build thread for a real, engineered, robot (not just a rasberry Pi on wheels) tgarner as much interest as a loco?

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Julian while it might appear that the hobby has been driven by steam loco's and steam engines that isn't really the case. There are way more home machine owners about than makers of either of those and has been since the year dot. That aspect is very likely to increase over time. It used to be pretty easy to buy either ME or MEW. It isn't now. I don't know of a single news agent that stocks it. Even in my time scales ME had to be ordered but odd copies could be seen in some shops.

Model Engineer covered all sorts of things other that steam. Rather a wide range of tooling for instance. Some people were perfectly happy making just that. I have met several people who fall into that category. Even these sorts of people are thin on the ground now. It looks like my DW miller was made by somebody of that nature. The person I bought that off was very disrespectful of his efforts and I would say incapable of matching them even at a trivial level. It's turned in to a buy it hobby, often for what to me looks to be inferior products. Reeve's Marston Green hit the rocks for a similar reason. Shrinking market and some one turning out precision castings that needed very little work and allowed people to build fairly simple engines with little effort at all.

Times change Julian. If people want an engine building forum there is one. I don't think people will be impressed with what it offers in terms of build threads and I would wonder if people would get the degree of help they get on here. I'd love to see a meaningful traction engine or loco build thread just to see how long it would finish up being. Books are available for many things in all of the areas but will suffer from the Myford effect – that is what will have been used to make what ever it is. The Myford effect often results in things being of a certain size too. Fortunately applied to a DW it's not too bad mainly due to weight. If some one designed a machine like that now I wonder what lathe the would pitch it at. I talked to a retailer that bemoaned what he had to do to his rotary table castings to get it one a Myford. It was initially designed to be made in schools. They don't even offer the castings now and I'd guess few would be interested in making one anyway but these days it could go back to the original design.

I do have a very well equipped workshop especially for the space I have available – currently still a problem. As some one put it else where – a lot of wise buys over a long period of time. i have had unwise buys too – 2 lathes in particular. The vast majority of my tooling came with the machines when I bought them. Some tooling often home made was bought off people who for one reason or the other were giving up. At some point when needed I will be doing more work on the rotary table and dividing head I posted shots of – when needed as is always the case with me. I don't mind spending upwards of 2hrs driving to look at something which appears to be ok. I usually convert it to a day out, general nose around and lunch with my wife.

I have a lot of kit for other activities. Largely down to any time I need say some woodwork doing I get a price and then look to see what it would cost to get what ever I need to do the job myself. The price I get quoted will be influenced by where I live. Not a terribly expensive part of B'ham but an area where tradesmen will assume I am incapable of doing anything myself.

I purely make things I need for what ever I am about at the time. This has included tooling especially for woodwork. Bits' for microscopes and telescope, electronics and etc. I've even used a lathe to square up the end of some drain pipe I was replacing. My interests are mercurial – even bits for a guitar at one point but later learned that I had problems learning to play it. I even returned to my model aircraft interest as a child at one point. All the work is as and when needed and mostly pretty small bits and pieces.

I seem to enjoy messing with lathes too. An insane amount of time spent on 2 of them. I currently have 3. A Pultra that may need more work than I think which is an indulgence really. At some point I will enjoy sorting it out. The other one is down to wanting to sort a couple of things out on my Boxford which in real terms are niggles but I will need a 2nd lathe to do it. Bought used, in good condition with it's chucks but oddly no steadies and if at some point I it sell losses wont be much at all. This lathe needs some sorting as well to make it more pleasant to use. I have the bits to do just that and need to make a couple of part to fit them. Later I may make a screw cutting indicator for it or even convert to cnc. I'me getting tired of tidying and sorting things out so have ordered a parting off blade for it so that I can make one of the bits I need on it. The other part will need some dismantling and another lathe while it's in bits.

The last 2 complete things I made, some time ago now was a centring telescope to allow me to set up a particular microscope and a fishing rod ring binding jig. In real terms my kit hasn't been used much for something like 18 months – nothing needed making. I've decided to have a very thorough sort out before doing anything else.

Really it is the people who want build threads who should start them not people who know what they are doing. That sort of person can contribute rather than actually maintain one. I reckon that is the only way any forum will get meaningful ones and mistakes will be made even then.

John

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[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

A lot of exchanges have been made since I started this thread a couple of days ago and thankfully now an admin member has finally made it clear the site of the direction the site will take. I am grateful the position has now been made clear.

It's been my opinion (and many others) that the site has now become so diverse it's no longer a serious engineering site but more of a general chit chat forum to discuss all manner of subjects from beekeeping to astronomy and even the occasional model building – I stand by that view.

I had intended to try to continue posting here by creating another simple build thread in the hope others would follow suit or at least let other beginners see the making of a simpler creation. However having seen the way another member has been verbally abused over his decision to discontinue his build thread I now have had to reconsider..

Whether Garry was right in his decision to pull the plug is open to personal opinion but nevertheless it in no way justified the response he got. A line of decency was crossed once remarks of 'Pantomime dames' and 'anally clean' machinery were mentioned, had there been any chance of him having a rethink and continuing the thread has now been finally closed, and who can blame him ?

As though the abuse in itself wasn't bad enough, moderators allowed it to continue when they should have been proactive from the start – that in itself speaks volumes.

I really can't be bothered to create a simple beginners build thread here when core material of interest gets lost in discussion about beekeeping and the Andromeda galaxy so for that reason I have taken the decision to cease posting here and will endeavour to try and create an item of interest for beginners elsewhere.

I'd like to thank those who have supported my stance and to those who offered advice etc during my build work.

As the creator of this post may I please request that a moderator now locks the thread.

Thanks

Peter.

Edited By Peter Nichols on 14/11/2015 14:11:14

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

4 Pages of comments and read nearly 4000 times. I sincerely hope it is not locked just because it did not go all your own way given the number of other opinions!

Is this not a public forum? If you want control of a transcript, keep it private….

Mark

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Hear hear Mark.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

JohnW1, A couple of very good traction engine builds, you just need to give your e-mail to register and then you can read them and see all the attached images

Julia Old's Gold Medal Tractor

3" Mac build

And a full size restoration for thos ethat don't like models but like seing things being done

J

PS the first two run to over 100 pages but full of invaluable info not just for making TEs but can be related to machining and making almost anything

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Thanks. I'll take a look Jason. A lot of what I have seen of build threads often seem to boil down to here is a shot of me machining what ever it is and don't pass off much information other than that. The problem with long meaningful ones is that it takes a lot of time to do them and not all that many people will be prepared to do that or have the spare time available to do it. It takes a certain type of person and in some case more time documenting than actually making.

I still think there is a better way of going about producing build threads. If a beginner wants to make something start one before anything even goes in the chuck and be prepared to spend the time that will be needed. A virtual one that doesn't involve making anything would be pointless. There has already been one on here – Brian and his problematic lathe. There is a lot of info in there concerning very basic aspects and on doing something about it. It turned unfairly I suspect into a don't buy Opti thread. Bit stupid really because the same basic design from some one else could well have the same problems so it's more of a don't buy that design unless you are prepared to sort it out. A Seig for instance is different in some respects but may have it's own problems. Actually for some one who has never used a lathe before Brian went about it in a very sensible way – he wasn't making anything in particular just turning.

An observation on these people who want to leave and suddenly end threads – with some glee it seems in that case. As people go though life some develop a degree of intolerance to what other people do to such an extent that anything that departs from their own needs or aims causes a lot of frustration. The answer is in their own court, recognise the fact and grow out of it or put up with it. There used to be a program on the TV called angry old men. Interesting example. The tendency is reached because things change and often not for the better – life in general in other words. Plus the fact that at a certain point in life people realise that things in general aren't as simple as the may have thought in the past. The end result is a certain amount of frustration.

John

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[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Peter Nichols on 14/11/2015 14:09:51:

It's been my opinion (and many others) that the site has now become so diverse it's no longer a serious engineering site but more of a general chit chat forum to discuss all manner of subjects from beekeeping to astronomy and even the occasional model building – I stand by that view.

I'm going to have to disagree with you (again). In one incarnation or another, I've been on this site ever since it started and I don't believe it ever was as "specialised" as you seem to think. It has always had a wide range of topics under discussion including some general chit-chat. However that has never – and still doesn't – preclude "serious engineering" discussions as well. It isn't the either / or situation that you seem to imply.

Why not just relax and do what others do – find what you want to on the site; ignore what you don't want. If you can't find any interests on the site given its "all manner of subjects", then your horizons would seem to be seriously limited.

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Posted by Peter Nichols on 14/11/2015 14:09:51:

…………

It's been my opinion (and many others) that the site has now become so diverse it's no longer a serious engineering site but more of a general chit chat forum to discuss all manner of subjects from beekeeping to astronomy and even the occasional model building – I stand by that view.

………..

Thanks

Peter.

Edited By Peter Nichols on 14/11/2015 14:11:14

Peter, sorry but that statement can't go unchallenged as in my opinion it is fundamentally untrue. I have just had a quick look at just the first 3 pages of the "Latest Forum Posts" section. Of the 120 postings in that list there is one astronomy post, one aircraft discussion post, one bee keeping post and one motorcycle post. The remaining 116 posts are all either general engineering, modelling, workshop tooling or forum related posts. "Diverse" yes, but "…no longer a serious engineering site but more of a general chit chat forum…." clearly incorrect.

Regards Martin.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The above twice quoted comment concerning general chat seems to imply there is something wrong with chatting about stuff that isn't engineering. It is now recognised that this sort of social exchange significantly enhances well being in humans and some men need an opportunity for it outside pubs and sport, especially in later life.

I urge all to investigate the Men in Sheds movement (which is subtly different and complimentary to Men's Sheds in eg Australia). I spent this afternoon in a public meeting about a new shed initiative.

My own ME club has very popular meetings, not at the track with an implied narrow purpose, where once a month people can get together with other engineers but maybe still talk about …xyz non engineering subject. The key is that they feel comfortable and relaxed being with fellow engineers whereas they would not feel comfortable say in a tennis club even if both groups were talking about the same off topic conversation. This forum, outside its overt purpose, is serving a valuable community social function.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I take the view of the forum as having /being a visitor in my or someone else's workshop, and sometimes one tends to chat on things other than modelling, or a particular engineering problem, some times a slight diversion will come up. If the diversion is a big one, start another thread, but try not to interrupt the subject being discussed.

I think that's what I was going to say, I know what I mean.

Ian S C

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Posted by Martin Cottrell on 14/11/2015 22:08:28:

Posted by Peter Nichols on 14/11/2015 14:09:51:

…………

It's been my opinion (and many others) that the site has now become so diverse it's no longer a serious engineering site but more of a general chit chat forum to discuss all manner of subjects from beekeeping to astronomy and even the occasional model building – I stand by that view.

………..

Thanks

Peter.

Edited By Peter Nichols on 14/11/2015 14:11:14

Peter, sorry but that statement can't go unchallenged as in my opinion it is fundamentally untrue. I have just had a quick look at just the first 3 pages of the "Latest Forum Posts" section. Of the 120 postings in that list there is one astronomy post, one aircraft discussion post, one bee keeping post and one motorcycle post. The remaining 116 posts are all either general engineering, modelling, workshop tooling or forum related posts. "Diverse" yes, but "…no longer a serious engineering site but more of a general chit chat forum…." clearly incorrect.

Regards Martin.

Nothing like a few facts to spoil a nonsense discussion! Thanks Martin

Steve

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Perhaps it would pay to add a build thread index to this forum. It could be a simple premoderated thread that members could add their build threads to so that all build threads could be accesed from one thread.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

There is, of course, the "Work in progress and Completed Items " where they appear now but I fully agree a thread for JUST build threads seems like a good idea to me. ( I'm sure there must be some snag that I've failed to foresee!)

Norman

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Norman, I think you mean a topic rather than a thread which would have everyboby's build in one thread. Though as you say a build is really just one persons work in progress so I don't really see the need for another topic.

A Sticky Index could be added to the top of the Work in progress topic if an index was needed having a link to each build thread and could be kept locked.

Edited By JasonB on 16/11/2015 16:15:12

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi JasonB A premoderated thread with just a link to each build thread as they were started would be ideal. No members posting other than initial notification of a new build thread and no comments. This would enable members to read through and follow each build that is relevant to their interests.

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

Hottest at the top, with number of posts shown so its easy to tell if a build has been updated or added to in some way, would be nice.

Shaun

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

And pigs might fly with this forum software

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Jason – that's really scary – it seems that you can read my mind – I thought it was only my wife that had that power!

I can see that giving the builder sole facility to post could avoid upsets ( caused by inappropriate / off topic etc comment) however imagine the frustration if you know that the path being followed will lead to disaster! Some folk will like interaction with their thread others will not tolerate it! All a bit academic for me as, with my rate of progress on projects, anyone following me would likely have taken up some other absorbing interest , like stick wittlin' , whilst they waited for me!

Norman

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by David Clark 1 on 16/11/2015 16:48:06:

Hi JasonB A premoderated thread with just a link to each build thread as they were started would be ideal. No members posting other than initial notification of a new build thread and no comments. This would enable members to read through and follow each build that is relevant to their interests.

Did you take a look at the build threads Jason posted links to or the ones on here – the initial poster is usually glad to receive a number of the comments they get. There are often some interesting areas of discussion relating to the work – how and why or correcting balls ups etc. These are likely to be use to anyone that builds the same or a similar thing.

Frankly I can't see the reason for this thread. We live in an imperfect world and it's very easy to make it less perfect by adopting ideas that are not based on what actually goes on in a typical build thread. Especially because it all seems to have been caused by some yo yo leaving with some glee having done something that was rather bizarre in the past anyway. He probably wasn't happy with the standard of work he achieved in it. Now has a new lathe and perhaps has found that it wont work when it's all put together. On the other hand he might just enjoy doing things like that. Or he may feel he is so good that he should go play with the big boys on the engine forum,

Tut Tut Jason – you didn't finish your traction engine build thread.

John

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[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi John W1 You are misunderstanding me. The suggestion was a thread comprised of links to build threads. There would be no need to comment as all that would be on the thread would be a link to each build thread. Premoderated so only build thread links could be posted. No comments would be required.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Norman, it would only be the index that would be locked/moderated and would in effect just be a list of links to build threads/ project logs as we have them now.

Shaun you can still see whats has been updated by looking at the topic heading as its reasonably easy to know when you last looked at the forum and teh number of posts will give an idea if its hot/popular.

Or you could bookmark any build/log that interested you so would get notified of any update which would actually be a better way as you would not get notified of an update to say a loco build if you were only interested in telescope builds etc.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Apparently there is a really good place for build threads that has been going for years, now what was it oh yes MODEL ENGINEER magazine. What's more you don't need a special machine to read it, it never gets deleted by people throwing toys out of prams only down side is the old threads don't have colour photos.

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