Britan Lathe – New Lathe Day

[Anonymous]

Now that I've recovered I can show what I did yesterday, as hinted at in my post yesterday on the 'What did you do today?' thread. What I did was to collect a new lathe with accessories, and some other tooling.

The day started early (for me) with a trip to collect a hire trailer. First hiccup was that the lights on the trailer didn't work, and the number plate wouldn't stay in place. Both problems eventually got fixed by the company I was hiring from. So then back home, by a different route to avoid the A14 morning rush nightmare, to pick up a pallet truck. Then onto the collection point, in a village about 10 miles away, up a series of rather narrow Victorian streets.

It took about 3 hours to get the lathe onto the trailer. The move wasn't far, but it was up a step, through a narrow door and over a sloping gravel drive. I then drove home, slowly as the trailer towed badly. It seemed to hunt quite a bit and the fuel consumption was awful; much worse than my bigger and heavier glider trailer. Here's a picture back home, and mighty relieved I was too to get there:

It took about 2 hours to the get the lathe into the garage. We had a false start as I had asumed that it would be easiest to take the lathe into the house and then back into the garage. However, we couldn't work out how to get the lathe safely over the big step at the front door. Instead we went in via the garage door. We didn't have to move the shaper, which is why I'd originally rejected that way. However, we did have to take all the handles off the surface grinder and then move the grinder back.

Here's the lathe in more or less it's final resting place, off the pallet truck, but still on rollers, as I need to insert the coolant tank and wire up the three phase electrics on the back before finally setting the lathe in position:

The lathe is a Britan repetition lathe, and came with lots of accessories, including round, square and hex collets, a knurling tool, die and tap holders, lots of left hand drills and a couple of nice Coventry dieheads. A lot of the tooling is special to the Britan, so the lathe wouldn't be much use without it. Here's the tooling, the pneumatic bar feeder and a Wolf grinder, angle plate and big V-blocks that I also collected:

I also collected a few Morse taper drills, some small V-blocks and a dinky internal micrometer, as shown here plus some more bits for the Britan, including spare belts, which is good, as I expect that they're now unobtanium:

Once I've got it up and running all I need to do is work out how to use it, and what I'm going to use it for! At least it should make it easier to make all the studs, screws and washers for my traction engines.

Regards,

Andrew

PS: The lathe and grinder were paid for by cheque, so I suppose we can say this is 'cheque book engineering' at its finest.

[Anonymous]

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Very neat and impressive.

A week or two ago I got another Emco Compact-8, after taking things off of it, my eldest daughter and I carried it inside and down the stairs – not quite as heavy as yours!

Another JohnS.

[Rob keevesParticipant @robkeeves73950]

Very nice, very heavy, reminds me that im moving in 2 weeks (bucks to beds) and my current workshop sits on a raised part of my garden about 2ft above the main area, by the time ive stripped all i can from the lathe it weighs in at just over 1/2 a ton. im really not looking forward to moving it.

[websnailParticipant @websnail]

Nice lathe

It looks like a 1 1/4" one.

Re: belts. These are changed in matched sets.

Re: tooling. Looks like you have a complete set. I can see what looks like a 'through the spindle' back stop. We also made up some collet back stops as well.

Re: barfeed. It looks like the bar feed has been shortened. I would have expected to see one around 6' long. The air pressure in these pnuematic bar feeds is very low. Do not expect the on board air pump to have any more pressure than a can of coke. It works fine on very low pressure.

Re: weight. A lot of the weight is in the man size electric motor underneath.

Regards

David

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

A Britan with the bits

You lucky dog

[Anonymous]

John: There are definite advantages to the smaller machine tools! I don't know how much the lathe weighs, as unusually the manual has no specification page. However, I estimate somewhere around 500-600lbs; so not particularly heavy.

Rob: Well I certainly don't envy you having to move machines over a 2ft drop. When picking up the lathe we had to negotiate a 5" step up, but we did that with some planks and feathered boards to give a smooth transition.

Ady1: I know I'm a lucky woofer. The lathe does seem to be particularly well equipped. As far as I know most of the collets and tooling are specific to Britan, so there's little point in buying one without tooling, as you sometimes see on Ebay.

David: Indeed it is the 1-1/4" version. Looking at the serial number it seems to be a model E Mk1A. Thanks for the advice on the belts and pneumatics. The bar feed tube is 5ft long; if it has been shortened I can't tell. I think I've identified most of the tooling from the pictures in the manual. It has a good selection of headstock collets, some tailstock collets and quite a few tailstock capstan collets. It's also got what looks like a complete set of self-releasing holders for normal taps and dies, as well as the two Coventry dieheads. The only thing missing which might be useful is a roller box, but it shouldn't be difficult to make one.

The lathe is rather newer than I thought. It still has the round headstock, so early 1970s at the latest according to http://www.lathes.co.uk. However, the manual I have, which has the correct serial number pencilled on the contents page, also has a price of 75p on the cover, which presumably puts it after February 1971. So I assume that the lathe was new after early 1971. I've never seen a price on a machine manual before, fancy charging extra for the manual!

This evening I've got the three phase wired up and given the lathe a run. It all seems to work, although the low/high clutch seems a bit stiff. Does anyone know if this should be changed with the spindle stopped or running? Along with the clutch and two levers on the headstock there are four speeds available in both forward and reverse. However, the V-belt to the headstock is on a three groove pulley, giving twelve speeds in total. Presumably if the speed range (in blocks of four) needed to be changed this was done manually before production commenced? At the moment the four speeds vary from 56rpm to 1125rpm, so quite a wide range. The manual doesn't mention anything about how to change speeds or ranges.

The pneumatic pump seems to produce air, and the hydraulic capstan feed seems to work, albeit a bit jerky. That may just be because I don't think the lathe has been used much recently.

I'm feeling my way slowly at the moment, trying to understand each feature. Any help or suggestions are most welcome.

Regards,

Andrew

[websnailParticipant @websnail]

Hi. The manual for my old Atlas 10-inch (1936) has a cover price of on doller

 

We never really had to change the belts up and down the cogs too often, the lathe has a great speed range.

The high/low speed gear lever should move then click 'over centre ish' and engage the cluch.

Check the book on how to adjust it. There are two known (to me) types fitted.

If in doubt, remove the 4 screws and just remove the gear lever and plate. It just pulls out. oil. Simples.

We hardly ever used 'left handed' tooling. On this lathe, All THREE levers can be moved both running and static. It is a repetition lathe and can go from fast forward, to fast reverse in half a second and back again.

You can go from turning, then use your left hand to move all the levers to the right ( reverse and slow) run the die up, flick the reverse lever down, feed the dia off (by feel), then high/low lever moved left, back to fast. The forward/reverse lever has two levers to make this easy and fast.

Have fun. If I had 3phase, I'd love to get one myself.

Edited By websnail on 24/10/2012 22:43:16

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Hi Andrew,

After stopping my mouth from druling, I began to wonder if the hydraulic line(s) for the capstan feed had air in it/them. That, plus a bit of stick/slip would account for the jerkiness.

Overall, it reminds me of the Swiss automatic lathe which we had to study and be able to design the cams.

Have lots of fun,

Sam

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

price of 75p on the cover, which presumably puts it after February 1971

——

75p was a FORTUNE before decimalisation

15 shillings

15/-

February 1971… gawd was it that long ago…

I used to dream of saving up ten bob as a nipper, you could buy anything with ten shillings

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ady,

Something costing 75p in 1971 would cost just over £8.00 today.

Best regards

Terry

[Anonymous]

It's just typical; I spend all my time at junior school struggling to learn £sd and hundredweights, stones, pounds and ounces etc, and then the government goes and changes it all! It's a shame I didn't keep a ten bob note, but somewhere I do have a nearly new crisp one pound note.

Sam: I think you have it nailed. Now I see that the manual does mention air in the hydraulic lines, and gives a procedure for removing it. I had a go but don't think I did properly. When the lathe is in its final position I'll treat it to a new fill of hydraulic fluid and try the procedure properly.

David: Thank you so much for the guidance on the speed and direction levers and the high/low clutch. There's quite a lot of 'fluff' inside the works, so I intend to give it a good clean and then look at the clutch. The clutch does work, it's just rather stiffer than I think it should be. You're no doubt correct that it just needs a clean and oil. I hope you don't mind me asking lots of questions? Where abouts are you based?

I now have another operating question. The manual states that the turning tool capstan unit can be set to turn either two different tapers, or one taper and parallel. Here's a picture of what I think are the relevant controls:

I see how the item labelled 'screw' can be used to swivel the capstan unit to enable a taper to be cut. There's also an indentical screw on the back of the capstan unit. What isn't clear to me is how you get two tapers, or one taper and parallel. All I can think of is the the front and back screws are set differently and the item marked 'handle' is used to change between the two limits. Is this correct?

Regards,

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 25/10/2012 11:48:08

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Have you got the pdf manual(16,955kb) and partslist (31kb) ?

I envy you, new skills and a virtually unique machine to play with

——–

I'll treat it to a new fill of hydraulic fluid and try the procedure properly

I'll mention it but You probbly know about a car brake bleeding kit which allows one man to do what is often a two man job

Edited By Ady1 on 25/10/2012 12:03:21

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Andrew,

I cheated a little.

Although I’m not a hydraulics engineer, the plastics injection moulding industry (which occupied much of my working life), is predominantly hydraulics in various forms.

With David and Ady1 alongside, you’ve got a couple of good friends and mentors already.

I wish you well.

Regards,

Sam

[websnailParticipant @websnail]

Hi Andrew. I'm in West Sussex, a little bit too far away.

Re: Clutch. If/when you adjust it, move it just a couple of clicks at a time.

Re: Feed bit jerky. Yes it's as Sam said, air.

Re: Tapers. Yes you are correct. The one on the rear is normally used for parallel turning and the front one for taper turning. The rear one will allow a little taper backwards but the front is far greater. I used to set mine up with the handle 'pointing' in the direction of the stop being used. Helpfull, if the taper is a slow one and it's not obvious. Helps to prevent scrapping the part.

You can set both up as tapers if required. If it's only a short taper, it's far quicker to knock up a form tool and of course much faster to use if you need a couple of hundred items. On Stainless steel (and the like) you would (if you had spare tool spaces) use a roughing tool first. As I would on hex bar, to knock off the corners first.

Re: Questions. Just ask. Glad to help.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Ady1: I downloaded the manual and parts list a while back from the company that now owns the rights – Andrew Engineering. Nothing to do with me! I also got an original paper manual with the machine. It is rather an odd manual; it's printed, which is a step up from the old wonky typewriter ones of the 1960s and earlier. However, it goes into a lot of detail on some things, but has no overall specification nor an introduction to controls and features. I did buy a copy of the Britan information on CD some years ago from http://www.lathes.co.uk, but the CD has gone soggy and the files are now unreadable.

Sam: Thanks!

Dave: Thank you for confirming that I've understood the taper setting mechanism, and the advice on using it. I feel confident that I can experiment with it now without fear of breaking something. It's going to be an interesting challenge to work out the best way of machining parts. Even a quick look at the manual shows that one correctly shaped tool can form several features at once. It clearly requires a different way of thinking.

The small company I bought the lathe from were very surprised at the interest they got for the Britan. I'm not, numerous companies have them on plant lists, so I assume there are quite a lot still in commercial use. Even the client who stopped by today to discuss an urgent design and machining job showed some interest in its potential.

Regards,

Andrew

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

What a wonderful toy, sorry, piece of tooling!

The downside is you now have to think of something complicated you need several thousand of!

There could be a nice litle earner in churning out parts for steam fittings or ship parts (binnacles, windlasses, stanchions, etc).

Neil

[websnailParticipant @websnail]

Hi, a little tip for when setting the tools up. Remember when grinding the tools, that they come in from the rear and are mirror images of lathe tools.

Put the tools in place around the holder in order and in the correct direction.

Depending on the job, you will need say………..

Rough turn,

Turn,

Face/cham,

Undercut,

Nick in the back, (at 30 or 45 degree as required), Sometimes a double nick, for both side of a flange.

Part off.

You will find it's better to fill, any unfilled tool spaces in some cases, as this helps keep the balance of the tools the same and this in turn, helps you not to bash the cutting edge into the hardened tool rest. When you start to get the hang of it, you should be able to 'fick' the tools around, missing tools out at will.

Tools. If you haven't got any, buy at least one box of HSS tool steel 5/16" square. 3 1/2" long. Prob have to buy it 4" lenghts and lob a bit off.

Tipped tools are/were also availble in 'back to front' style.

[Anonymous]

Neil: Let's not beat about the bush; it's a wonderful toy! And I'm really looking forward to learning how to use it. I've already had a client show interest in its capabilities. While I assume that it was originally intended for reasonable volume production, I think it will be useful to me for much lower volumes, even down to 10's. I have a capstan unit for my normal lathe, and it works well, but one big issue is that the saddle position is difficult to control. You need to be at one end of the part for facing and chamfering, and then the other end for parting off. I am hoping that the Britan will make this much easier, so that parted off components have a consistent length, without the need to measure and face the second end as required. I'd be happy if I could produce parts with a length tolerance of better than ±0.004 in one operation, I'd be delirious if I could achieve ±0.002". I had thought of steam fittings, but parts for ships escaped me; good idea! Apart from experimenting, I expect that the first serious use will be to make the studs and washers for my traction engines. I'm happy to use commercial nuts, but I think that a turned washer with a slight chamfer looks so much better than the commercial stamped out washers. And it gives the rivet counters something to check on.

David: Great information on the tool setup; you've also saved me money! For some reason I had in my mind that the tool bits needed to be 3" long, now that I've checked in the manual it says 3-1/4" to 3-1/2". I've got several boxes of tool bits, some ground, some unused, to play with, but it'll be useful to stock up with some more, of the correct length! The 5/16" square bits seem to be easily available, but 5/16" by 1/2" and 5/8" don't seem to exist. Presumably, if I was turning brass for instance, there's no reason why I shouldn't make form tools out of gauge plate? I've already learnt by hard experience that if you don't get the tool capstan rotation right, you ding the tool rest.

I have a supplementry question about tool setting, in particular tool height. I understand how the tool height is adjusted, using the eccentric screw at the back of the tool, but what do you use to reference the tool to centre height? On my normal lathe I just 'eye' it up against a centre in the tailstock. Can one do something similar on the Britan, or is there a better way?

It's interesting that tipped tools were available. Presumably there's no reason not to use insert tooling? A 5/16" shank is pretty close to 8mm, so the smaller tool shanks could be adapted.

Aaaaah, I've just had to nip into the workshop to have a quick play, just for the sheer pleasure of running the spindle up and down in speed, forward and reverse, and watching the hydraulic feed working. Simple pleasures for simple minds, that's me.

Regards,

Andrew

[websnailParticipant @websnail]

Hi Andrew.

Re: Machining to lenght. Each tool has it's own stop, moving left. If the facing and parting off is done with these stops, a couple of thou is possible. Don't forget you also have two stops, that you can use as a starting point for turning (internal and external) on the right. Putting a chamfer on heads/washers etc.

There was also extra long stops available to help (or hinder).I've also made up stops of my own design and used slips.

Gauge plate works. All rather depends on what you are cutting and how many to want to make.

A little tip. Not only grind a cutting on each end of the tool steel but make both ends the SAME TYPE of tool. i.e. Have a f/cham 45 degree on one end and a f/cham 30 degree on the other or a short p/off and a long p/off. It saves you looking for fav part off tool, only to find it's on the other end of the turning tool already set up! It helps as the number of tool peices grows, to keep similar tools in separate boxes. Quicker to find.

 

Re: tool height. For the first time, I'd use a centre drill to mark a bit of scrap.Then set p/off and face/cham tools to this.

With a p/off tool in the lathe, face a flat surface. Stop spindle. Use p/off tool to scribe a line from the centre, outwards. Set all other tools to this line.

Re: tolerance. Depending upon material cut, diameter etc, a couple of thou on lenght is no probs.

On diameter, you will be able to hold 5 thou with your eyes shut, 1 thou with a little care and tenths if you need them.

Unless you are maching thing like tufnol, I'd always use suds. You need to keep the tool rest/stops clean.

Have fun

Dave

Edited By websnail on 27/10/2012 23:40:57

[Anonymous]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the very useful hints 'n' tips. Clearly the accuracy of the tool centre height setting depends upon the skill of the tool setter! It's also great to have some numbers to aim for on length and diameter tolerances. I'm a great believer in numbers, they're a key part of engineering.

I assume by suds you mean soluble oil? That what the people I bought the lathe from used. The only Britan I have seen running (some years ago) was using neat cutting oil. I'd prefer to use soluble oil, as I that is what I use on my other machines, and it would be good to stick to one type.

Now onto hydraulic oils; the manual specifies Shell Tellus 27 or equivalent. This doesn't seem to be available now; it's either ISO22 or ISO32. I've bought some ISO32 hydraulic oil, as some companies list this as an equivalent to ISO27. I hope it will be ok, or I've got a lot of redundant hydraulic oil!

For lubrication I imagine it will be no problem to find the lithium grease specified. For other oiling points the manual says straight mineral oil. For general slideway oiling I use an ISO68 oil formulated for slideways; any reason why this shouldn't be fine?

Regards,

Andrew

[websnailParticipant @websnail]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 28/10/2012 13:17:47:

" Clearly the accuracy of the tool centre height setting depends upon the skill of the tool setter! !

As you may already know,operating manual tools is part theory, part art.

Whilst the lathe can be operated by unskilled labour, the more skill the setter/operator has, the more you get out of the machine. It can get very interesting sometimes, when dieing, boring, tapping etc trying to get all the opps done in one hit.

Re suds. Yep. soluble oil. I made up a little ally plate to go over the spray bar to help stop splashes going over me.

Re hydraulic oils. I can't remember what we used. Sorry.

We used straight mineral oil for slidway lubrication though and all other oil caps.

Have you got the air out of both the feed settings?

How you doing with the bar feed?

Dave

[AB658Participant @ab658]

Andrew,

I've checked the data sheets before & after the change in the mid-seventies to a universal ISO method of describing lubricant viscosities and "old" Tellus 27 is close to the same as "new" Tellus ISO 32 at 40 deg C & atmospheric pressure; also at 100 deg C.

A quality no.2 lithium grease should be fine for all general grease applications.

An ISO 68 slideway lubricant would usually contain a tackiness additive, since its primary application would be vertical slideways; i.e. thicker & stickier than its horizontal counterpart. I would use it for both (I only have horizontal applications), with hand application. In an automated oiling system, unless specifically recommended by the OEM & the lubricant manufacturer, I would be wary of using it in an older & now little-used machine. In that situation, I would prefer an hydraulic or even a straight mineral oil of the equivalent viscosity.

And yes, I was selling & supporting these products in the 1970s and spent my entire working life in the business.

Adrian

[Anonymous]

Dave: I'm not sure I have the theory yet, let alone the art! It'll be interesting to see how the coolant gets spread around. My lathe came with a small casting, with a clear window, that clips over the spray tube. As far as I can tell it's an original Britan part. The hydraulic feeds are definitely better, but still a little jerky at very slow feedrates, say 1/2 a turn from closed on the adjuster, so I guess I haven't quite got all the air out yet. I haven't looked the bar feeder yet. Due to the lathe location I can't permanently install the bar feeder, as it will have to stick through the door and into the hall. I'll have a play with it once I've got the lathe finally positioned, so I can operate all the controls, and still open the door from the hall.

Adrian: Thanks for checking the oil specifications. I'm mighty relieved that the ISO32 oil is ok, otherwise I've got 20 litres that's no use to me. As for the manual oiling points I've got loads of ISO68 hydraulic oil, so may be I should use that rather than the slideway oil. I'd certainly be interested in any advice, hints or reminiscences you have.

Clearly for turning parallel along the lathe axis the diameter is controlled by having the set screw on the tool capstan hard up against the tool rest. However, for operations like facing or parting off what role does the relevant set screw play? Is it just a limit to stop the tool going beyond the centre point? I assume that the feedrate, and hence surface finish, for facing is controlled purely by how fast the operator moves the handle?

I'm hoping to have a bit more of a play with Britan later this week. I've been tied up in the workshop for the last couple of days machining an experimental jig for a company that always leaves things until the last minute, and then asks me to work through the weekend.

Regards,

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 29/10/2012 23:09:45

[Anonymous]

Dave: One thing I forgot to ask in my previous post; would you use coolant when machining brass on the Britan, or run it dry as is the convention on manual lathes?

Regards,

Andrew

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