bricking up a garage door for workshop, ideas

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Neil,

Converting a garage to a habitable space may or may not need planning but chances are not BUT will need building control to get involved and then you get presented with all the current regulations not least of which is insulation.

So not as straight forward as some may think.

I have or at least will be insulating the garage I am building not that I intend to convert it in to a couple of extra bedrooms but the option is there but it should mean I can keep it warm in the winter and reasonable free from condensation.

[JonParticipant @jon]

How do you intend getting machines in and out if you only have a normal width door?

Better solution would be to change the up and over to an insulated draught proof roller door. Can get them with windows in and probably similar price as bricking up.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Sounds like Bob is not a UK resident as the limit is 18m2 in my part of the uk, deliberately set just below the size of a standard garage. But, with some limitations, you can put two or thee of them side by side just not connected so they are seperate sheds.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

In England it is exempt from building regs if 15m2 or 30m2 if it is built from non-flammable materials or is at least a metre from any boundary.

Generally, you can cover up to half of your garden in outbuldings without planning permission.

All HERE

Neil

(Who has had and still has quite a lot to do with planners & the planning system for entirely different reasons)

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Thanks for the link Neil, I think if that tree goes I can extend enough for another shaper.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

We recently checked this with the planners and no, you don't need planning permission if the structure remains within the profile of the existing building. We are removing a sideways-rolling set of doors and replacing them with a stud work wall with windows and standard exterior door. As the machinery in the existing workshop got in through a standard door (Super 7, VMB) it will get out again when the need arises. No structural changes, no need for building control as far as I can see.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Not actually seen house in question but understand that one Model Engineer not far from me has a mill,lathe and goodness knows what else up in loft! ceilings are bowing. Given that building regs people get involved when internal load bearing walls are knocked down, requiring an RSJ for support, wonder what they would say about our "Chuck" Model Engineer?

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

The UK loads for residential floors are 1.5Kn/m2 and ceiling joists 0.25Kn/m2 UDL so there is a big risk of it all collapsing.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Building regs apply to loft conversions for very practical reasons.

Neil

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Loft conversions can be quite complicated and the chances are the floor will need upgrading and due to this it does sometimes give height issues as you probably need at a minimum 6" x 2" timbers but that depends on the spacing and span. 6" x 2" will span around 3.2mtrs or 8" x 2" 4.3mtrs at 16" centres but that still only gives you a loading of 1.5Kn/m2 but a lot better than ceiling joists.

one other issue with machine tools on wooden floors and in particular lathes is twist in the bed so machine not able to be retained true.

Bob

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Gee The building code is there for a reason…. To make sturdy and safe buildings. Planning or building permits may not be necessary depending on where you live they will differ. but common sense dictates that we build to the mandated standard anyway. Our family and friends use the spaces we build.

Regards
john

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

But the man is not building anything. He's just blocking a door, all loads on roof timbers and lintels have already been covered.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

opps! we did wander a bit off topic and as you say Gordon the structural items are covered.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Indeed, but if anyone planning to build or convert to a workshop, this thread will hopefully give some useful food for thought.

Neil

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

I would also check the 'deeds' of your house. In ours it states that we cannot change the original use of any part or room of the house. We have an integral garage, so a garage it must stay. (so a removable partition behind the up and over door would be my only option.)

Also all other structures in the garden have to be 'temporary' so wooden sheds ok but not a brick one. (and restricted in size and to 1)

Dave

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Interesting, the comments here. For my part I would go with leaving the garage door in place and building an insulated stud wall behind. Insulation is important, you can't get enough! You don't want it cold anymore thatn youy want the damp (rain) to get in! Unless the machines are huge then they will fit probably through a standard doorway if stripped down into manageable chunks – well, that worked for me!

Interesting also the difference between English and French planning. We have just converted an attached garage in France into living space with a bedroom over and although the planning application had to go via the village Mairie to the planning department AND to a church planning department for approval (because the property was within the 'eye' of the village church) and all had to approve, all they wanted to know was what the outside elevations would look like, would it match and conform to existing, and size and style of windows was very important – they stipulated what we could have. How we blocked up the doorway, made inter-connecting doors on both levels, insulated the place, supported walls, wired the place for sockets and lights – our problem, not theirs, it is assumed that the builder takes responsibility to make sure it is right and conforms (to what I am not sure) and the builder has to guarantee his work for 10 years. If you do it yourself…………..? At least we were not plagued with officious building inspectors nit-picking throughout like we would have been done here!

Edited By ChrisH on 21/04/2014 21:53:06

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

"I would also check the 'deeds' of your house. In ours it states that we cannot change the original use of any part or room of the house. We have an integral garage, so a garage it must stay. (so a removable partition behind the up and over door would be my only option.)

Also all other structures in the garden have to be 'temporary' so wooden sheds ok but not a brick one. (and restricted in size and to 1)"

So, if you ignore these covenants, who is going to try and sue you? We had a number of similar clauses in our deeds put in place originally by the developers of the estate to protect the "character" of the development, and over the years have come to realise that they are effectively unenforceable. Recently we have collectively worked with a solicitor to largely "extinguish" them.

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread, but I would like to pick the brains of the readers.

We are about to buy a "new" house that has a detached 30' X 20' heavy duty precast concrete building in the garden.. Whoopee! I thought "what a garage/workshop", the actuality is sinking in, what a huge volume to insulate and light!

My current thought is to partition right across the back, say 10' from the rear wall and effectively have a 20' X 10' workshop. The front bit having junk storage racks/bays at right angles to the walls but only 4' deep which still leaves room for a car. Also I think I will convert the big hinged doors somehow to either having a pedestrian door in them or making one bi-fold to make access easier.

For the lighting I was thinking in ordinary flourescence lamp terms of 6 X 5' ~ 7200 Lm, but using 12 V LEDs instead, I have seen 1200 Lm at about a fiver on fleabay. I just wonder how reliable the adverts are. 6 tubes at 60 W = 360W, using LEDs, should be less then half this. Also with multiple (30?) " bulbs", I can split the lighting up into smaller areas.

This is a problem that I never for one minute, thought I would ever have!

Frank

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

My first thought that's quite large, then the practicality of a concrete building may present some things that will need attention not least is insulation and I would as the legal bods to make sure that the relevant planning is in place or if it is required.

The first thing to address is budget, which unless you are down sizing likely to be relatively small but I would be inclined not to cut corners and try not to do the job on the cheap as you will regret it later.

If the building is structurally sound the one thing to think about is insulation, the thermal properties of concrete is not very good and precast buildings not very thick. Then windows and doors will be important as easy access and light are important as is ventilation. It will depend on the construction as to the ease of fitting doors/windows horizontal panels are easier than the vertical bolt together ones. Concrete prefab buildings are not known for being water tight as they only normally rest on the concrete base so moisture may be a problem.

As far as lighting then first thing to check is power supply, ideally you need an incoming cable of at least 4mm2 which should give you a 45amp supply but depends on cable length, personally I would prefer 6mm2 or larger. I have seen outbuilding supplied with a bit of 2.5mm twin and earth or even an extension lead which is not the way to go. As for lighting I would and will be fitting 5ft led tubes 22 watts each cost £50.00 ish each so for me that is likely to be a budget of £300.00 for lighting (7m x 4.5m) garage/workshop. Will also run a ring main with probably 6 doubles or may go to 8 and also a dedicated 32 amp supply for welder.

Lots to think about

Bob

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

" will be fitting 5ft led tubes 22 watts each cost £50.00 ish "

Don't know where you are getting them from but I paid £28 for these, each. They are Philips.

I would consider a chunk of the workshop measuring 12' x 12' ie. a big corner. Save your legs running up and down a "corridor workshop" when you have forgotten something at the other end. Why you would (or anyone would for that matter) consult a planning department is questionable for such a small project, you are not actually building anything and I believe that the limit is 55 sq metres before you need to consult anyway.but from experience I will tell you, they are not going to help.

Good advice about the cable though, I personally used 6mm steel armoured because for the length of run I was right on the limit and the cost difference wasn't that much. May be different now with prices though as cable seems to fluctuate wildly at times. Those LED lights you saw on ebay? I used a load of LED in my office and workshop, worked really well and I am very pleased with it. All bought from ebay.

And 30' x 20' isn't quite as large as you would think. You will soon fill it. I did and then started on "extensions".

graham.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Hi Frank

My workshop is also a converted garage 7.3m x 3.6m so a little smaller than you. I would definitely consider an internal dividing wall. I did this and now have a store attached to my main workshop. This gives me loads of extra wall space for racking and reduces the volume I have to heat. I used 50mm celotex insulation on battens faces with 12mm MDF sheet. This keeps the place warm enough for nearly all the year and a small heater warms it to comfortable within 30minsat other times. The MDF is hard wearing and means that screwing anything to the wall is a piece of cake. Self leveling screed and 25mm flooring grade chipboard for the floor keeps things comfortable underfoot. The whole interior came in at well under £1000.

If you are exploring planning this is a good place to start.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/house

Tells you what you can do without worrying the planning officers.

regards Martin

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Oompa,

I was working on a 5ft led tube plus the fitting and that was using a good quality fitting again pay for what you get.

As for planning I was only suggesting a check to ensure any planning regards to garage are covered as outbuildings can be overlooked and rules do vary e.g. conservation area etc. In England if planning is required and it is not approved then the council can make you take it down. Note: this is a proposed property purchase so a job for the legal bods.

No matter how much space you have it soon gets filled up and a well insulated workshop area should not take that much to heat and sods law says if you reduce the size it will be to small for say a 7 1/4" loco, I think 20 x 10 is the way to go.

A mate of mine has a barn that is about 50 x 30 which was getting full so he put up another one (agricultural use) and promptly filled that one up as well so goes to show no matter how much space you have it soon gets full. The adage I'll keep that it may come in useful one day which in most cases never does springs to mind.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

As a note taken from the Planning portal

"Your responsibilities

With all building work, the owner of the property (or land) in question is ultimately responsible for complying with the relevant planning rules and building regulations (regardless of the need to apply for planning permission and/or building regulations approval or not).

Therefore, failure to comply with the relevant rules will result in the owner being liable for any remedial action (which could go as far as demolition and/or restoration). The general advice is to always discuss your proposals with the relevant Local Planning Authority and Building Control Service before starting work."

It costs nothing to ask and could save £1000's!

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

I wasn't criticizing you Bob I was being critical of the various "planning departments" I have had to deal with over the years. I won't bore you with the details.

The 5ft LED fitting including bulb – the whole thing supplied made by Phillips – costs me £28 at my local electrical factors, I was questioning the cost.

I wholeheartedly agree about space though. Doesn't matter how much you have, it is never enough. I have been a bit ruthless just of late. If I haven't used it or had a need of it in the last twelve months then out it goes. There are some exceptions though.

graham.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I always tend to over cost things as it nice when it is lower in price than having to pay more and I was working off prices that most people see.

One thing that does fall in building regulations and must be checked is electrics even on outbuildings, gone are the days of DIY for electrics and I would suggest you get someone in who is able to "sign the work off".

It's no good playing the DIY route and hope you'll get away with it, should you wish to sell/move it will come and bite you in the bum.

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