Brake line junction block.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Brake block.

This is a new brake line block I machined up to replace the original. The original hoses were rotted, so I replaced them and did away with the two steel tubes that connect the hose to the calliper and the hose from the master cylinder to the divider. Unfortunately, the new hoses have the banjos on the same plain requiring the lower hose to be twisted through 90degrees to connect to the original divider, so I machined a new divider to get around the problem. The lower hose connects at the rear of the divider, as does the brake light switch. The top hose connects to the side of the divider.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Looks good but to my eyes its way to big and the whole line assembly holds far too much fluid.

Banjo unions too. Yuck.

My experience is that to guarantee proper bleeding, especially with stainless braided (Goodridge et al) lines the total fluid capacity of one pipe run must be less than the brake calliper contents so one side can be fully flushed with the other side pistons strapped down into full retraction. Usually such extreme measures aren't necessary but sometimes you get bubbles that just won't shift.

Shudders at the memory of a wasted weekend almost taming a friends 1000 cc Kamasaki four pot.

I use straight angle connectors with baby T unions, the bronze ones they used to fit the Girling systems on Minis et al if I can get them. Straight through all the way so the fluid flows properly and drives the air up and out when the pistons go back.

All done in one run through.

I've always had a thing about front brakes working.

If they can't lock the wheel at ton plus they get sorted.

Right from the superb 8" single sided one on my DB32 Goldie (190 mm, crap, way too hard to set up right) through the unfairly maligned BSA/Triumph TLS conical hub to the 4 pot Yamaha ex FJ 1200 pair that replaced the standard twin piston Yamaha crop on my Norton Commander.

Finally giving it brakes to match the big rotarys performance. Quote from the official unofficial kid sister, the girl who put the agg, res and sive into aggressive riding, "Grandad bikes shouldn't be so fast." Coercing BMW brakes to behave was a total pain. Especially the lunatic swinging caliber ASTE versions.

Clive

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Alloy? Think I would have anodised it.

Regards Ian.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

I don't think a 3mm hole really holds that much fluid.  Personally I like bajo fittings, that's why I used them.

I could have anodised it, but I think it would have looked out of place on this bike.  What do you think?

Edited By Tony sacc on 25/08/2023 10:47:26

Edited By Tony sacc on 25/08/2023 10:47:56

Edited By Tony sacc on 25/08/2023 10:48:51

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

For what its worth! I think it looks very nice, and a nice piece of machining.

It looks quite complicated for what seems to be a T piece to mount a pressure switch for the brake light. Does it contain anything else, e.g. a proportioning valve?

Genuine question: What's wrong with banjo connectors? They look very neat; are they hard to bleed or something?

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Sorry, that exclamation mark should have been a comma, but I cannot edit it now.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

In my experience, even on low ,pressure fluid systems, Banjo Bolts are bad news. There are four possible leakage paths, (One each side of the sealing washer ) whereas the swaged cup/cone system used on most hydraulic brake systems has only one per connection.

That is importanr when dewsaling with the pressures likely to be encountered in Hydraulic brakes.

In my book, such connections are safety critical.

Howard

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Most motorcycle brake lines use banjos, I've never seen one leak or cause an accident.

The original setup.on the XS650 had a banjo and hose connected to the MC, on the other end of the hose was a cup/ cone arrangement connected to a steel line which connected to the junction box via another cup/cone fitting.

Then there was a banjo and hose connected to the junction box, running down the fork leg, that connected to a steel line via a cup/cone, then on down the fork leg connecting to the caliper by a another cup/cone fitting.

That's six fittings and 8 sealing areas.

I'll stick with banjos!

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Absolutley nothing wrong with banjo style, a safe, reliable and easy way to connect, in this instance, hydraulic brake pipes. The problems arise when the less mechanically able are let loose on them.

Does anyone else find themselves getting somewhat irritated with sweeping statements rubbishing well tried and reliable technology is rubbished as it has been here?

Back to the OP's junction block, could have been somewhat more compact. Why not a rigid pipe from the master cylinder to the junction block?

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Well,the idea behind it was something that you can see, something that draws your eyes. You can't hide everything under a plastic cover. Have a look at the bike, if I hid everything, or made everything smaller, less noticeable, it would be a totally different bike. This is what I like, it's the look I was after, so, that's the way I built it.

You'll notice, the inlet hose is on the left and the outlet pipe is on the right, the junction was made to span the width, so the outlet hose follows as straight a path as I could get down the fork leg, allowing for the up/down movement of the forks.

Now if I replace the upper hose with a rigid pipe,how would I adjust the MC angle, how would I adjust the handlebar angle, how would I change the handlebars? And then there is the aesthetics: This system fits in with the design of the bike. Maybe, not to everyone's liking, but I haven't built to please everyone, just me!

I have similar parts like this in areas you can't even see, but I know they are there and that pleases me. I could have made the seat more compact, the side covers less noticeable, the catch can smaller, the air filters more compact, the cooler less noticeable, the spin on filter less noticable. i could have painted the engine silver like a stock XS650, I could have painted the bike in a brighter colour, put a squarer looking tank on it, longer mudguards, painted the wheels black, made a two into one exhaust, I could have anodisedall the aluminium instead of polishing it. In short,I could have have done a lot of things differently, but still there would be someone who would suggest I could have done something different to fit In with their bike ideology.

The bike follows my design philosophy, that's the way I built it, the way I like it. I'm pleased with what Ihave built.!

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 25/08/2023 11:05:01:

For what its worth! I think it looks very nice, and a nice piece of machining.

It looks quite complicated for what seems to be a T piece to mount a pressure switch for the brake light. Does it contain anything else, e.g. a proportioning valve?

Genuine question: What's wrong with banjo connectors? They look very neat; are they hard to bleed or something?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with banjo connectors, they are used on most bike braking systems. The stock XS650 used both banjo and cup/cone connectors, either can leak given the right circumstances.

It comes down to personal preference, if someone doesn't like a particular fitting then one will come up with all sorts of silly nonsense to prove to themselves the fittings aren't up to the job. There are rigid rules in effect on brake line, fittings, materials, design and so on, If a particular design is passed as safe and fit for the intended use, I'd find it hard to disagree.

Then there are aesthetics, what looks good to one is just plain ugly to another, but to expect everyone to agree with you on what is pleasing to the eye is just plain ignorant.

I find it always a good idea not to pass judgement, unless of course you are asked.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

FWIW, I could have used a single hose, stretching from the MC to the caliper, as many have done, and fitted either a mechanical switch to the lever, or a pressure switch to the banjo fitting. I decided to go with a split line with a junction in the middle simply because I liked the look and didn't want wires snaking their way up to an ugly pressure switch mounted on the end of a banjo bolt.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Absolutley nothing wrong with banjo style, a safe, reliable and easy way to connect, in this instance, hydraulic brake pipes. The problems arise when the less mechanically able are let loose on them.

Does anyone else find themselves getting somewhat irritated with sweeping statements rubbishing well tried and reliable technology is rubbished as it has been here?

Ah, Not what engine manufacturing finds, and avoids banjos for the reasons stated of multiple leak paths.

Maybe manufacturing industry such as Rolls Royce, Fuel Injection manufacturers,and Perkins, fall into the "less mechanically able" category?

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 26/08/2023 15:55:42:

Maybe manufacturing industry such as Rolls Royce, Fuel Injection manufacturers,and Perkins, fall into the "less mechanically able" category?

I've worked on two Derby Bentleys that have banjo fittings in the fuel lines. AFAIK they were built at the Rolls Royce factory.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Stueeee on 26/08/2023 16:21:09:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 26/08/2023 15:55:42:

Maybe manufacturing industry such as Rolls Royce, Fuel Injection manufacturers,and Perkins, fall into the "less mechanically able" category?

I've worked on two Derby Bentleys that have banjo fittings in the fuel lines. AFAIK they were built at the Rolls Royce factory.

…..and this post was about motorcycles, all the major motorcycle manufacturers still use brake banjos, never seen or heard of problems with their use and we’re talking about some extreme machines, if it ain’t broke and all that.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Even better if you use Dowty washers instead of copper

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Having seen so many leaks ,from banjos,on commercial fuel filters, so avoid 'em like the plague, but each to his own.

Maybe gas oil is more searching than hydraulic fluid.

Howard

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

You'll find more bikes on the road with banjo brake lines than not, by a huge majority. I'm sure that the only bikes I have owned that didn't have them were cable- and rod-operated brakes.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 26/08/2023 15:55:42:

Absolutley nothing wrong with banjo style, a safe, reliable and easy way to connect, in this instance, hydraulic brake pipes. The problems arise when the less mechanically able are let loose on them.

Does anyone else find themselves getting somewhat irritated with sweeping statements rubbishing well tried and reliable technology is rubbished as it has been here?

Ah, Not what engine manufacturing finds, and avoids banjos for the reasons stated of multiple leak paths.

Maybe manufacturing industry such as Rolls Royce, Fuel Injection manufacturers,and Perkins, fall into the "less mechanically able" category?

As has been pointed out, pretty much universal fitments on motorcycle brake systems. The hydraulic industry as a whole must use them by the billion. Well thought out reliable tech.

As for the less mechanically able, once a product leaves a factory the manufacturer has lost control over there product, so who knows what might happen,

Having seen so many leaks ,from banjos,on commercial fuel filters, so avoid 'em like the plague, but each to his own.

Maybe gas oil is more searching than hydraulic fluid.

Howard

Really? Filters and water separators are under very low pressure, for these to leak reinforces my point about the "the less mechanically able".

[Richard MillingtonParticipant @richardmillington63972]

It's your bike, as long as it works and you like it that's all that matters.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Not too sure that the seal in a dowty washer would be fit for brake fluid ? Noel.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

According to Google you can get them in various grades of rubber, or even ptfe. Need to make sure you get the right one, which might be difficult for small numbers

Edited By duncan webster on 26/08/2023 22:19:08

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Hi,

The brake hoses on my Discovery 2 have banjos which are sealed with copper washers, the hydraulic hoses on the anti roll bar have banjos which are sealed with Dowty seals.

Maurice

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

My Bike banjos are fitted with dowry washers and are ok but having said that the fluid is fully synthetic.

[Author]

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