Box for Rotary Table

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Between other tasks I have been making storage boxes for collets, drills etc.  Normally I have been using MDF (sawdust held together with some indescribable muck).  Its cheap and only requires a full body suit and respirator when working.

The next box off the blocks is one for the rotary table and associated bits.  As it happens I have some long bits of Western Red Cedar which I was planning to use.  Somewhere I’m fairly sure that I’ve read about wood outgassing toxic stuff, and leeching sticky stuff and corroding metal.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the use of western red cedar for tool boxes.

cheers

Bill Pudney

Adelaide, Australia

 

 

 

 

 

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

Bill,

I don`t know about Western Red Cedar but whatever you do NEVER EVER use OAK. Personally I`d stick to MDF, so far I haven`t seen any traces of rust from any of my MDF tool boxes or trays.

Alan

[SleazeyParticipant @sleazey]

I am not an experienced woodworker.

 

Can you amplify a bit on the reasons why “NEVER EVER use OAK”? What woods are good for making tool/instrument boxes?

 

Also, what kind of glues are safe in making boxes that will be holding metal (iron, steel, brass, Al) tools and instruments? That is, glues that do not outgas anything that promotes rust or corrosion,

 

Thanks muchly.

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Joe,

 

Oak has a lot of tannin or tannic acid.  This ‘outgasses’ from the wood and will react very quickly with iron and steel causing corrosion.  that’s why iron nails were never used in oak carpentry, building structures using oak are designed with wooden pegged joints.

 

Probably the safest wood to use is good old pine which apart from being pretty inert is quite soft and will absorb knocks.  Mahogany is pretty good as well, attractive, takes a nice finish and safe, but I would ensure interior is well sealed with varnish anyway, However it costs and is not easy to get hold of these days.  Another light coloured timber is beech with all the properties you need.  Of course, birch ply (I wouldn’t use cheap ply) and mdf are also as good, and the toxicity fears of mdf are overplayed and exaggerated but I would wear a dustmask, as I would with all timber operations where dust is likely.  That’s why I prefer hand tools and no sandpaper – ever!  It is not needed if you use sharp finishing tools which cut rather than abrade. But that’s another story.

 

A good basic glue is good old pva, again inert and strong.  Not perfectly waterproof so you wouldn’t want to go boatbuilding with it but perfectly adequate for boxes and cabinets etc.

 

Terry

 

 

Edited By Terryd on 21/05/2010 07:52:21

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Bill,

 

Western Red Cedar was used in WW2 to make aircraft hangars, because it is not prone to wet and does not rot.   There are buildings dating from then which are still standing, Aeroventure near Doncaster, for one.

I would suggest that it will be fairly safe for your tools.

 

Regards

Geoff

Edited By Geoff Theasby on 21/05/2010 16:14:25

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Ceder was/is used as a lining material to stop morfs from eatin yer clothes so it will be ideal to stop the rust moffs from eatin yer tools.

 

  Regards  Ian.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Western Red Cedar is not suitable for the storage of materials containing iron if there is humidity present, for the reasons mentioned above by Terry (21/05/10 at 07.49), as like oak it is very high in tannin.

 

Whilst the wood itself is very durable, as referred to by Geof Theasby (21/05/10 at 16.13), the use of stainless steel fasteners is essential if corrosion of the fasteners and discolouring of the timber at the points of contact is to be avoided.  Hot-dip galvanised fasteners are sometimes used in fencing for economy.  Iron or iron alloys must never be used with this wood.

 

A quick search using the words   Western Red Cedar corrosion     or similar should give you enough information to reach a firm decision.

 

Regards,  Phil

 

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Circlip,

 

You wouldn’t repel many moths with Western red Cedar I’m afraid, although you may
poison them as the timber contains toxins that make it unsuitable for
indoor use in large amounts.  Western Red Cedar, despite it’s name is not a true Cedar it comes from the species of tree Thuja Plicata.

 

The wood used for lining blanket chests etc. as a repellent to moths (they hate the smell of the resin apparently, although I never did ask them ) is  from true cedars (species Cedrus) such as Cedrus Deodara (from the Himalayas) or the Cedar of Lebanon.  True Cedar is too expensive to make these chests, instead thin sections were (are?) used to line them.

 

For the reasons given by Phil above and the fact that it contains toxins which would be released by sanding especially, I wouldn’t use it for boxes for storage of tools.  Especially when suitable timbers are readily available at reasonable price. If you are going for a softwood, Red Deal (commonly called ‘pine’) is an excellent choice.  Inexpensive, easily worked, readily available, non toxic, harmless to tools and easily stained and varnished.  What more could you want?  By the way, I use Beech as I have a stock from old school desks. 

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 22/05/2010 05:16:16

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

O.K.  Thanks for all that information.  The only reason that I fancied using western red cedar is because I have it!!  I certainly wouldn’t PAY for it.  However on advice I will use MDF and use the WRC for something less strategic/important.

Thanks again.

Bill Pudney

Adelaide, ‘straya

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Bill,

 

I know that you intend to use mdf but i thought that this may interest you especially as you have WRC.  It is an extract from an HSE (Health and Safety  Executive) guide here in the UK.  Quote:-

 

“In woodworking there are several situations where health

surveillance may be appropriate, for example where there is
exposure to wood preservatives (particularly CCA), wood

dust (eg western red cedar)…..”

 

It particularly mentions WRC as it has a natural ‘preservative’ hence it’s long life outdoors.  As far as mdf is concerned it merely talks about the dust hazard and the importance of suitable protective gear.  Also be careful of the free formaldehydes from the resin bonding agent.  It appears that this latter is the main cause for concern but the thinking is that is mainly industrial use of these formaldehydes where continual exposure is expected that there is a problem.  Small scale hobby use of mdf is unlikely to be a problem, apparently. The recommendation is that the surface and cut edges of mdf should be sealed after completion of project to prevent free formaldehyde being released.  Although I shouldn’t think that small boxes will cause problems.

 

Terry

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I had a bit of a look a few sites, and they all warn of the effect the aromatic(smell)has on asthma sufferers, its also is an insecticide, and it cause illness and even death in small animals(rats, mice etc). It could be OK if sealed, but if there are knots and splits there could be a problem. The only thing I could find on its effect on metals was the using plain steel nail/screws may cause staining.
I see that in Canada they build log cabins out of it, with no ill effect.Ian S C ps the aromatic is Plicatic acid, a hydrocarbon.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Western Red Cedar is very popular for cladding eco buildings, as it doesn’t need preservative.

 

Just thought you might like to know that

 

Neil

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

On the health issues. 

Back in the ’80’s I was carving some F1B (Wakefield, model aeroplane) prop blades from WRC.  I had to take the job outside because the dust was upsetting my sinus’.  “Outside” in Adelaide is always windy.  I was quite ill for a couple of days.

Then just before Christmas 2009, I was making an MDF box for my ER32 collets.  It was all cut on my bandsaw, as a result the edges needed minimal sanding (we aren’t talking Rolls Royce boxes here, just boxes to keep the dust and muck out).  As I was cutting this stuff I remember coughing and spluttering.  I ended up with the worst flu symptoms I can remember.  I felt bad for about two weeks.

The next time I cut any of this rubbish I WILL wear a mask!!

cheers

Bill Pudney

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

The comment about not using oak is a bit confusing in the light of the fact that a number of quality tool-chest manufacturers (e.g. Gerstner) have used oak for years.

 

What gives?

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

I don’t know what gives Sid,

 

but I can asure you that the tannic acid in oak will severely corrode iron and steel.  As I said before oak pegs have to be used instead of nails in oak structures, steel nails simply rot away.  I can confirm that from the state of eh odd nail hammered into the oak beams of my barn and farmhouse by previous owners.

 

Meccano used oak for some of their boxes for larger sets at times and they are known to cause severe corrosion of the parts.Also in furniture manufacture this effect is well known and all fastenings are non ferrous, usually brass.  When the chippies at my college used to make oak furniture they would use steel screws to cut a thread and then replace the screw with brass. Otherwise corrosion of the ferrous screw or pins etc.  would cause ‘bluestain’ an ugly disfiguring of the timber, in a very short time.

 

It may be that the tool chests are sealed so well or with a special lacquer that the tannic acid cannot leach out.

 

Sorry I can’t be more positive about ‘why’

 

Terry

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Sid,

 

After seeing the chests from Gerstner, I note that they are advertised as ‘triple varnished’ and all contact areas are lined with synthetic baize, which prevents contact with ferrous tools. 

 

Further I note that all hardware in contact with the timber is either nickel plated or brass.

 

Perhaps that explains it  .

 

Terry

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

MDF can be a bit ‘doggy’ because the main binder used is Urea Formaldehyde.  There was a lot about sealing things made of both MDF and hardboard from ‘Elfin Safety’.  It was something to do with escaping Formaldehyde vapour.  With the right sort of bugs (found in the soil) urea breaks down into CO2 and Ammonia.

The problem is how fast is this process?  I have a feeling that the ‘Elfin Safety’ bods may have gone ‘OTT’ (again)

I use pine my self it is all I can get over here.

 

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

About thirty yrs ago I was home on holiday helping Dad clear some trees, among these was an Oak tree(don’t know species), Dad had just got a Black&Dekker drill attachment wood lathe, so I cut a piece of oak and turned up a boiler and wheels cut some bits of flat wood, and made a toy locomotive,its held together with steel wood screws, they were new and shiny, I’v just now pulled out a screw, and its just as it was thirty yrs ago. Because the wood was green(cut staight off a living tree), some of the flat bits are a wee bit warped, but theres no splits. whole thing took 10 min from tree to finished, no paint or other finish on it. Proberbly does’nt proove anything about oak and corrosion. Ian S C

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Ian,

 

Quote from wikipedia

 

“Woodworkers should beware that ferrous metal hardware reacts with oak, causing corrosion and staining the wood.   Brass or stainless steel fittings should be used instead.”

 

Also see Here for an extremely good pdf on oak construction by the Forestry Commission.

 

Here’s a short quote from that:

 

“4.8 Chemical properties

Oak is an acidic timber which tends to promote the
corrosion of metal in contact with it in the presence of moisture The timber
itself  is subject to blueblack staining
which is formed in a reaction of iron with tannin in the presence of moisture.  
Oak contains large amounts of tannin, which when green timber is used will
bleed from the wood as it dries …………   the
tannin can cause corrosion in steel and …….. It is sensible to use corrosion
resistant fittings (such as stainless steel).”

 

It is also interesting that oak bark was used for tanning leather because of the high concentration of tannin (hence ‘tanning’).  The blueblack effect also happens with seasoned timber, not just green.

 

Perhaps you made your loco from the sapwood which has little or no tannin, or perhaps it was elm which is often mistaken for oak. 

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 23/05/2010 13:25:05

Edited By Terryd on 23/05/2010 13:28:02

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Hi Terry,

 

I hadn’t intended to be confrontational in any way about the tool-chests. In fact I’ve heard about the difficulties with oak before. I was just curious.

 

Presumably the varnish et al gets around the problem for Gerstner and others although I still find it a little odd that they would select a contra-indicated material and then patch over the problem. Then again, oak does have a certain “mystique”.

 

I notice some other makers are using maple which has always struck me as a decent hardwood although it doesn’t have the decorative-grain qualities of oak. It’s certainly ubiquitous in my neck of the woods (Canada).

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Sorry Sid if I gave the impression that I thought you were being anything other than inquisitive.  I had no such thoughts.  I was also intrigued that they used oak.  In the UK when I worked in the toolroom most (if not all) toolmakers cabinets were of Mahogany (mostly Moore and Wright).  It must be the finish and linings that have the protective effect.  I have emailed them to check and query the use of Oak.

 

I note that Gerstners also produce Maple and Cherry cabinets.

 

I think that it is good to query what is often bandied about.  Many myths and wrong uns can be debunked that way and better answers sometimes found.  I never have a problem with that, as I said, after nearly 40 years in the classroom I rather expect to be queried! 

 

Best regards

 

Terry

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Terry, it was oak, it had acorns, and oak leaves, the boiler almost full dia of a branch-2″,the flat bits heart wood quarter sawn so it would be stable, it was green, I’d just finished cutting it down with the chain saw. A few years later and I could have seasoned it in the micro wave oven (an Austrailian idea), for a number of years until the mid 80s I was doing a reasonabley large amount of wood turning, until the dust started to get to me, even with a mask. I suppose if one got some Litmus paper, and damped an area on the wood one would find if it was acid. Ian S C

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ian,

 

I wasn’t trying to demean your comments or experience, just trying to understand why your experience is counter to just about every peice of advice iand evidence I have ever seen on this subject.  I too had a lot of woodworking experience given that I taught Engineering crafts and woodwork for nearly 30 years before getting my IT qualifications and pursuing a career in teaching IT.

 

All I know is the experiences of my fellow students, my own experiences with my own oak products 30 years of teaching, including the structure of my home and the advice of all the experts.

 

Terry

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Don’t worry Terry, the lack of corrosion in this one case has puzzled me for years, the toy was not ment as a serious piece, but has remained around the house, and nephews, and now so far one grand nephew have played with it, and if it had rusted so what. Ian S C

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