Black 5 Boiler problems

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Ron, I hope you're starting a conversation with the builder about a replacement boiler properly made at no additional cost to you. Something went seriously wrong with some joints in your current boiler during the build to cause the problems you have described. The builder should admit it and get on with proper repairs or rebuild, not bodge things up with silicone sealer or ptfe tape. Even if it does pass the steam test now, such bandaid fixes will cause trouble later. Just my $0.02 worth, good luck. JD

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

Something puzzles me about this whole saga.

OK I haven't followed it from the beginning so I must be missing something, but how in blazes could it have been tested without the blanking plugs etc in place? Surely the constructor had to bung up all the holes before it was pressure tested. So why must the purchaser have to make and fit his own for a repeat test? Doesn't the constructor have the original plugs etc? Which begs the question, how certifiable is the certificate supplied?

My two cents worth – I get the impression that this company is not the best one to make and supply pressure vessels, I wonder if other customers have had a similar experience?

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Thank you for all your replies its so frustrating.

I joined the Nottingham sme last week as well as my Rugeley sme.

Both clubs seem to be saying the same with all the repairs being carried out that will now cause problems after steaming with cracks.

I have given him a chance to repair one more tie but if it fails again then i think i will ask for a refund.

to be honest i don't have any faith in it any more i think i have been very unlucky and have a bad feeling about it now.

Being a novice it's hard to deal with also having Alzheimer the worry is making me ill i am just hoping monday i get good news hate confrontation.

Ron

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

Hi Ron,

I really sympathise with the problems you are having. I only picked up on this thread now but it seems as if it has been going on for a while.

You are right about reheating a boiler to cure leaks, not recommended as you fix one small leak and create two more! So if it were me I am afraid I would have demanded my money back a long time ago and then asked for advice from club members who they would recommend.

Boilers are potential bombs if incorrectly constructed and the workmanship isn't up to scratch. I have a friend who is a coded welder with the highest ticket for pressure vessels and some of the tales he has told me are scary!

[Billy BeanParticipant @billybean67480]

What a sad tale.

I would ask for a refund then get in touch with Helen at Western Steam – they do not come any better.

I only speak as a satisfied customeer.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well i did not get my boiler back for boiler test as he says its leaking from the front bush through the thread,

He has used his own blanking plug this time but said he wants to leave for the copper silicone to dry for 24 hours.

I don't understand why he is not using ptfe tape to seal his plug for the test.

If it fails again i do agree with so many who have sent me private messages that the boiler is not fit for purpose and if it fails this time time to ask for a refund.

Hate all this not slept in days with the worry over it got to make some decisions i do think i have waited long enough and took it back so many times.

waiting again for phone call to see if it has sealed

Ron

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If as you say he had to remove the front bush to do the tube repair work and then solder it back in again its possible that the heat has damaged the threads or the bush itself, thats why it is suggested to not fully tap the threads until after soldering. I'd be taking a close look at that bush with your inspector when you get the boiler back, if he can't seal it with a plug whats it going to be like for you when you try to seal the fitting.

J

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Just heard boiler now ok but he was going out and was going to leave it for me.

I refused so now picking up tomorrow after seeing it on test.

Let's hope it will be ok in the morning

Ron

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Please, do not go alone.

Wait until you have a trusted friend to go with you, then go.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi John yes i always take my friend who it also in our club with e as i don't trust him any more after getting presure test and taking to club finding 3 more leaks.

Ron

Edited By Ron Hancock on 21/03/2016 15:09:47

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well guys some good news at last went to GB today and saw my boiler on test at 180 psi and no leaks.

Going to Rugeley Club tomorrow for the 4 year boiler hydrolic test then i can concentrate building the boiler up.

I will after every part fitted do a leak test as i have to refit blower tube regulator Tube and fittings.

If i do it after each part i will know if one fails don't ever want to go through the last few weeks as i have done.

Lets hope it all goes together ok but going to take my time so i get it right.

Thank you all for your help and support it really has been encouraging.

Some times being a novice you feel so lost without your help and the clubs i would have given up as so often happens.

all the very best

Ron

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Ron,

Do your regular tests at normal working pressure, not 180psi, otherwise you are cycling the boiler through high stresses unnecessarily.

Neil

[Colin GParticipant @coling]

Ron, Neil,

The order of events for a commercially made boiler is: 2 x hydraulic by the manufacturer, followed by a 1.5 x hydraulic with fittings attached ( minus the pressure gauge if loco pressure gauge is not rated high enough), carried out by the club inspector, and finally a steam test at normal operational pressure, plus steam accumulation test to make sure that the safety valves are capable of keeping the pressure to no more than 110% of max operational pressure. It would be perfectly safe, and satisfactory, to do a 1.5 x hydraulic test with blanks or fittings attached before the boiler is fitted into the loco, to give confidence that all is well. Especially as Ron has had so much trouble with this boiler so far.

Colin

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi all today is a good Day took boiler to club the did the hydraulic test 3 times the last one held firm at 180 for 30 mins so now have to fit all the fittings ready for the next test.

Lets pray for no more leaks from what i fit i will be checking after each thing fitted.

i would hate for more disappointment supose i will be living in workshop for the next month till its do.

Thank you all again for help and advice

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi well made a start on building back up again i managed to fit the blower tube all loctite in so hope it does not leak now.

Made new fitting for the front where the regulator tube goes to the regulator and made a new tube so threads very good.

Could not fit as the gas regulator had got to hot and melted when he welded new dome bush weld that had leaked.

New one coming tomorrow as out of stock at screw fix i was hoping to get it fitted so i could do another test in the morning make sure no leaks at each stage i am probably being over causes now but better to be sure and avoid further disappointments later.

Lot of work to do again but feeling positive now i was loosing interest but hope if i keep at it soon get exited again.

Ron

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

good to hear a positive note! I build mine up complete then do a snagging list of what needs to be corrected. You are unlikely to see the leaks until you steam for the first time so be prepared for a few more knocks!

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

So glad it seems to be going OK at last. You must have the patience of Job!! All the best for the next part.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

I am sure all of us applaud Ron's perseverance plus fortitude, not least the dent in his bank balance, with the trials and tribulations over his Black 5 boiler.

Ron has privately messaged me at every stage but I have been somewhat hesitent to post here as on another forum a thread which I started on this matter created a huge backlash and got rather heated!

I reckon Ron will be a bit of an expert now at sorting out boiler fittings into boilers. He has already made an excellent start after the extended club hydraulic test today.

I wish him all the best.

Cheers,

Julian

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Ron as a fairly recent board member who does not make models I had not read your post until a couple of days ago.

(My machinery is used for motorcycle stuff) You certainly have gone through the mill with your boiler, what did catch my eye was your location or the location of your SME I am not far away in Kings Bromley. I hope you can move forward at a good pace now you are sorted. Chris.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Thank you Julian Chris nice comments.

Chris I used to be into Bikes myself used to Spanner for a Guy called Tony Head at GP also used to sponsor my son for many years an several bikes. Also had and built many bikes myself.

Well today started working on building my Boiler back up making new fittings new pipes but decided to fit them all together using bearing fit.

So paranoid of getting any leaks going a little over the top..

I know to undo I will have to use a good flame but As it will fill up to 2mm decided to give it a try.

The last thing I want is more leaks blast tube and fittings all made and fitted Regulator fitting and pipe all new and fitted so just giving it an hour to set.

Will now fit dome top with new gasket and pressure test before fitting back head fittings.

Going slowly but just taking care would like to hydronic test again Sunday if all fittings on fingers crossed

Ron

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Ron, what is "bearing fit"? I am not familiar with this product. It will fill up to 2mm? Really? Is it high temperature resistant? Does it have the strength of silver solder?

David

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

It's used on bearings that are loose in the casing.

It will take heat no problem so I am told it does not replace the silver solder I am using it to seal the threads in the copper fittings to make sure steam and water won't leak at all I hope.

Today I have fitted most of the boiler fittings including super heaters.

I have put 120 ain't pressure into the boiler sprayed with soapy water no bubbles at all as yet.

Fitted water gauges Regulator and even got the back of the boiler undercoated.

tomorrow hope to flat it down ready for next undercoat then will take Sunday for another boiler test now the fittings and super heater are in.

never expected to get this far but suppose I have striped and rebuilt so many times went on very easy.

proof will be in the pudding on next test at the club Sunday if all goes well I can fit the lagging and outer cover.

fingers crossed again

Ron

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Okay, I understand what "bearing fit" is. Interesting.

I hope you do understand, that when boiler fittings are screwed into a threaded bushing, the seal is between the flat face of the bushing and the flat shoulder of the fitting. The threads do not make the seal. Threads, by definition never seal, (or you could not screw them together), they just pull the two flat faces together. Do not depend on the threads to seal, you must depend on the flat faces to make the sealing joint. Also, the threads in the bushings must be square to the face, otherwise, the threads will pull on one side of the face with more force than the other, this will cause a leak on the side of the face with less force.

In fact, since the "flat faces" are not always exactly flat, this is where a gasket comes into play.

David

Edited By David Wasson on 24/03/2016 20:59:52

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi David,

It is not easy to get boiler fittings all assembled correctly and with perfect mating faces.

You silver solder a regulator steam pipe regulator bush to the smokebox tubeplate – how can you be absolutely sure it will be square to the steam pipe? Ron's design of this is based on two threads (bush and steam pipe) with a double thread connector in between – a variation of the LBSC design used by LBSC but improved by Don Young with a proper threaded boiler bush rather than simply tapping the copper smokebox tube plate.

Even with a relatively flexible long internal blower pipe with a bit of give in it, the fitting of same inside the boiler is still rather awkward.

I make my own fittings in a certain way to achieve proper alignment of things such as water gauges, but suppose you buy commercial fittings for a water gauge that are slightly undersize on the thread OD compared to the relevant boiler bushes, plus when screwed up hard the fittings are not in alignment. These sort of problems I am sure will be familiar with many, and the way of resolving these problems isnt easy.

One should aim for perfection, but sometimes well known dodges have to be employed. On individual fittings such as clack valves if screwed up hard and wrong orientation, shim copper washers can be employed. But then you do a dry run then add a bit of the old fashioned red hermatite (no longer available) or one of the modern equivalents, and for some reason the copper shim is no longer thick enough! So a thicker copper shim washer needs adding in substitution. As for blower pipes and regulator steam pipes I could write a lot more. I still use the LBSC type threaded blower pipe, but ditched the threaded regulator steam pipe many years ago.

Cheers,

Julian

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Hi Julian,

Yes, I understand exactly what you are talking about. Of course water gauges and clacks are almost always shimmed with copper washers to get proper alignment. Copper is a soft and is somewhat forgiving and probably helps seal faces that are not exactly flat or in alignment. The soft copper washer serves to align the fitting and also becomes a gasket of sorts.

A loose thread will probably allow sealing faces to come together more easily than a close fitting thread that might pull to one side if it were out of square with the sealing face.

I would just be concerned about "gluing" threads so they don't leak. If the sealing faces are in good alignment and pulled tight, it does not matter if the threads are close, loose or even glued. If there is no shoulder or face for the parts to seal against, that is a completely different matter. Are these glued threads easily unscrewed?

(p.s. I've been reading your boiler construction thread. Amazing! Love the photos, Have not finished the thread as it is quite long and is really full of good information. Thank you for taking the time to do this!)

David

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