Best universal (horizontal + vertical) milling machine

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

What would you recommend?

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Plans are afoot for the new workshop (read: I've just got to dig the base out which could finish me off haha)

Anyway my mill is a Chester Champion and whilst I am very happy with it I am minded to sell stuff to fund a bigger and better milling machine, the principal reason being that it has a rising table to adjust the vertical distance so I don't lose register (as I do with the Chester) between cutter or tool changes. And I would like to be able to do both vertical and horizontal milling

So which machines would people recommend? Hopefully by selling enough jewelry, spare bike bits and other stuff I could pull together just over a grand

Thanks

John

Edited By John Coates on 01/10/2013 20:43:13

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello John, given a no cost restriction I would not hesitate but buy a Schaublin 13. This had all the functions that you would require. Though no longer made it is possible to buy good used/refurbished machines.

There is a firm in switzerland who specialize in this work and have a good stock of machines and spares.

Look at Mullermaschines.com. some machines come fully tooled up with arbors and accessories.

Clive

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

I have an Alexander Master Toolmaker which is to all intents and purposes is identical to a Deckel FP1.

**LINK**

There is not much ( I still havn't found anything ) that you cannot do with it.

This one sold recently for a price within your budget.

**LINK**

Phil

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Clive: thanks but looks out of my price range

Phil: thanks I will set up an ebay search and the size/footprint looks like it will go in the new 12' x 8' workshop when I finish it

Edited By John Coates on 02/10/2013 07:21:15

[RICHARD GREEN 2Participant @richardgreen2]

John,

Get a Tom Senior , I've got a Tom Senior M1, it does vertical, horizontal, has power feeds , coolant, loads of them around, plenty of attachments available ( rotary tables ,slotting heads etc ),

There's usually something on e-bay, I wouldn't want to be without mine.

They are not too pricey either, should get a good one for £1000 ish.

                                                                      Richard.

 

Edited By John Stevenson on 03/10/2013 22:25:44

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi John,

I have a very old Victoria HO with vertical head

**LINK**

It cost me a few hundred pounds, the paint was peeling and the table slightly scarred. It had already had a long and useful life when she came to live with me some 15 years ago. I am sure you could get a more "modern" horizontal machine if you shopped around for not much more money today (in fact I've recently seen a horizontal mill with a Bridgeport vertical head fitted for sale at £450!)

My machine doesn't have a universal table or a drilling quill (although I've thought of several ways to add this facility). What it does have is a power table feed, massive bulk and the ability to take very healthy cuts in both vertical and horizontal modes. I can also turn large diameters on it. I have a smaller horizontal mill (Atlas MF with a vertical head) as well as a Taig milling head (for high speed vertical use) attachment that I built to fit on the bed of my EW lathe (indoor workshop). I therefore do most of my "model making" on these smaller machines but any larger work goes on the Victoria.

These old machines are not very popular these days, most probably because they are so heavy. The upside is that they were built to do real work and (looked after) will last several lifetimes. They will take cuts that would frighten the life out of most "hobby" mills. Whilst I'd love to have a precision "Swiss" mill, it might not like it's new home (my main workshop is unheated and somewhat damp) whereas my old machines seem quite at home down there.

So there are large, old (unloved) horizontal mills about that do not need to cost a fortune and that are capable of real work. The only downside is the need to get them moved but I hired a twin-axle trailer (£50) and two of us managed with a friends two-ton engine crane. So if you have the space for one of these lovely old monsters – they have much to commend them.

Regards,

IanT

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I believe a universal mill should have the facility to swing the table and connect the table drive to a dividing head for such operations as helical gear cutting and the like.

Mike

[Anonymous]

Posted by Michael Poole on 02/10/2013 12:10:26:

I believe a universal mill should have the facility to swing the table and connect the table drive to a dividing head for such operations as helical gear cutting and the like.

Mike

Correct, although the use of 'universal' to signify vertical/horizontal is a common misconception. Personally I prefer to have separate vertical and horizontal milling machines, as it would be a PITA to keep swapping configurations. I have a horizontal attachment for the vertical mill and a vertical head for the horizontal mill, but rarely use either.

Regards,

Andrew

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

I'm very pleased with my Thiel 158. Fortunately, it came with all the original attachments, which is just as well because if anything can be found, it tends to be quite expensive. I removed the very suspect electrics and now run it from a 1 – 3 phase inverter. I've also added a 3 axis DRO because there is a bit of backlash, particularly in the X axis. I know I can compensate for this manually, but I'm lazy!

Originally supplied to the Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft company in 1971.

This is a Ram type machine. The vertical head stays in place when in horizontal mode. The 28 x 10" table tilts 30 degrees left/right, front back and the table is removable leaving 2 horizontal Tee slots for mounting tools, although I have never done a job that needs this facility. I would like the fixed table if I could ever find one at an economic price just for the extra real estate it provides.

The footprint for quite a large machine is moderate, but the weight of the machine bare is approximately 1.25 T. It still sits on the industrial pallet that it was delivered on, although it had chocks inserted between the top and bottom planks. I don't have the headroom to lift it off the pallet, but there has been no problem for the 10 years or so that have owned it.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I have a tom senior universal. It is a true universal machine as others have explained, it has horizontal and vertical capabilities as well as a table that will swivel up to 45 degrees in either direction. I have never had to use this feature , but its nice to know its there if i need it.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I was actually referring to a swivelling table when I mentioned "Universal" on the mill Mike, although I've never had a need for one so far. But I hadn't realised the dividing head could be connected too.

In terms of changing from vertical to horizontal Andrew, I don't do it that often – the mill generally tends to stay with the vertical head in place most of the time (it's also blooming heavy). I certainly do use the horizontal mode from time to time, for instance to cut larger slabs down their length (with a saw mounted on the arbor). Be hard to do this most other ways, even with a bandsaw (which I don't have anyway). Otherwise it's down to chain drilling and then cutting through with a hacksaw (too much like hard work these days I'm afraid) but you still need to clean the edges up afterwards.

I've also used the horizontal for milling with an end mill (mounted directly in a chuck in the taper). I guess this in principle is rather like using a lathe with a vertical slide but it's obviously capable of considerably longer lengths and the set-up is extremely rigid. I do have some circular cutters but as they are expensive and I have more end mills/slot drills etc. that's what I tend to use most. As I don't have a quill on my vertical head, it's also easier sometimes to plunge and/or drill in the horizontal mode than trying to do it by raising/lowering the knee.

Much the same logic applies to the Atlas MF by the way, just on a much smaller scale (e.g. I can cut sheet brass pretty well with it).

So I guess I do like Horizontals. Possibly because when I was originally doing evening classes at Tech, by the time I arrived there from work, all the Bridgeports were taken. So I often ended up with the old Horizontal machine. The other advantage with the Horizontal (and its being unpopular) was that I could sometimes leave my work set-up on the table on a Tuesday night and it was still there undisturbed when I came back on the Thursday! Big time saver not having to set-up again from scratch – assuming it was even practical !

OK, I'm meandering – so it must be time to call it a day!

Goodnight & Regards

IanT

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Yes the universal capability of the table being able to swivel , when used with a universal dividing head , it being geared driven by the x-axis leadscrew can be used to cut helical spiral gears etc

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Thanks for the link Ronan,

I've not seen helical gears being cut before and I guess that the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" might be very true in this instance.

I also now understand that there can be quite a difference between the kind of more complex dividing head that these machines use and the simpler devices more commonly used by hobbyists. I have both a spin indexer and a 6" rotary table (with indexing plates) but I hadn't realised there might be any particular utility in being able to gear my indexing device to the mill's leadscrew.

However, perhaps I should master cutting simple involute gears first!

Regards,

IanT

[RICHARD GREEN 2Participant @richardgreen2]

Here's another use for a horizontal mill, horizontal drilling and reaming of a large casting which is too big to get in a drilling machine,

Also using the same mill to cut the gear.

I've also got an Elliott U2 universal mill with a swivelling table, A lovely machine but I've never needed to use the swivel table,

Richard.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Well the gears I was referring to would be a good deal smaller than that one Richard – but the ability to do very large and awkward jobs (even if it is only once in a blue moon) is certainly very handy when they do comes up!

Like the look of your U2 by the way – looks a lot cleaner than my old lady Vic.

Regards,

IanT

[RICHARD GREEN 2Participant @richardgreen2]

Ian,

The mill in the pictures is a TOS FA3A, I bought it to do some of this traction engine stuff, as it's the next size up from the Elliott U2, and has quite a bit more table travel, and rapids as well , ( excellent for gear cutting, saves a lot of hand winding when returning the table for the next gear tooth )

Here is a picture of the Elliott U2 ( same as a Victoria ), it shows the versatility of the swivelling vertical head when used for horizontal boring, also a picture of the U2 doing some gearcutting.

Richard.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Yes, I can see the family resemblance Richard.

I've not used the vertical head turned through 90 degrees like that ( I don't have a large box-angle plate for a start) and was wondering why I'd want to do it (instead of between centres in the lathe for instance) but then I noticed the piece you are working on looks to be effectively a 'blind' bore.

But thinking further about it (even if I could set it up on the Super 7 for between centre boring) I guess I'd still have to pack the work up to correct height and also I doubt it would be quite as rigid (My S7 is also pretty ancient).

So I guess the reasoning is – easy height adjustment using the knee, power feed and a very solid set-up?

Regards,

Ian

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I have a Victoria U2 and use the swivel table all the while because for the last 9 or so years it's been set up as a gear hobber.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Much as I've been enjoying this exchange (I don't get to talk about Horizontals too much) it's just occurred to me that perhaps we should apologise to the original poster for somewhat hijacking his thread – so sorry John.

But then again – maybe we've made a good case for you looking for a nice Elliott U2 (with a vertical head and dividing gear)?

:

Regards,

Ian

PS But your photo does raise even more interesting questions John S – It looks like it's all driven by some kind of CNC or perhaps some kind of electronic interlock (rather than a direct geared connection) ?

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

IanT: not bothered about the thread hijack as I have a good list of options and as usual have learned some new stuff from the exchange and the photos

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Electronic interlock is a good description.

There is an encoder driver off the cutter arbor by a timing belt, in my case geared up to give 4,000 pulses per rev.

These go to a simple circuit board that counts the pulses, does a divide by calculation based on input and how many teeth you want to cut then spits the steps out for a conventional stepper driver.

Brian Thompson, the designer, covered this in MEW 108

Same system can be applied to a vertical milling machine if again you have an encoder driven off the spindle and you tilt the head to the helix angle of the hob.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the Centec.

Its a very sturdy horizontal/vertical mill (if you also get the Vertical head), with a small footprint (if you ignore the drip tray) see LINK

The MkIII vertical head is a gem, but they're not that common.

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