Best Budget 3D Cad software

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Hi Alan

Fusion 360 will do for me.

It’s about 10 years since I last used TurboCad so I have to start fresh anyway.

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Some good points Dave, not everyone needs CAD.

In my experience once the bug bites it evolves in the quest for new knowledge and new skills and as a result easier ways of doing things. Now when faced with a new project the components are all entered on Fusion but then it branches into what is only and can only be CNC and so heads to the CAM module, what might become CNC but needs proving with a 3D print and then what is just a straightforward 3D print. The 3D print is then a couple of clicks away from running. If there is a PCB involved the board can be created and the box modelled to suit.

I have never had a Cloud storage problem nor for that matter a loss of date from a Fusion crash, not that I have experienced very many crashes and if it should happen there is always a Fusion created Cloud backup waiting in the wings.

I have used Fusion in UK, France, US and New Zealand together with many airline lounges on my travels. I have just logged on with my laptop as normal with no issues so to date I have not encountered any of the licence restrictions you mention. I think the licence is probably defined on the user login details and less so the location.

The other thing I didn't mention is having all the functionality in one package means you learn to use a common interface and because you are using it more in using the various modules it remains more familiar through more common usage. If you are running separate apps for CAD and CAM etc you have each app user interface as a separate unique GUI with it own quirks and learning issues and familiarity becomes less well retained as each app is used less often in day to day activity.

It is all a matter of personal circumstances and personal choice. I was hoping my thoughts would give new starters in the hobby food for thought and help along the way.

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Hi Dave

Sorry we doubled on the messages.

I hope you enjoy using Fusion and I recommend looking at the YT sites I mentioned to get you up and running. If you ever want to compare notes send me a PM or contact me via my blog.

Alan

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Thank you Alan, I will do, Very early days yet. For what I want to do, 3D printing will be the way to start.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 07/04/2022 11:32:40:

…

I have used Fusion in UK, France, US and New Zealand together with many airline lounges on my travels. I have just logged on with my laptop as normal with no issues so to date I have not encountered any of the licence restrictions you mention. I think the licence is probably defined on the user login details and less so the location.

…

Roughly equivalent to me saying I've never been fined for parking on a double-yellow line! It's true I've done it a fair few times over the years without repercussions. However, my good luck doesn't mean it's legal or that no-one else will get a ticket.

I wonder how many Fusion users have read Autodesk's Terms of Service carefully? I haven't, because as a hobbyist I'm unlikely to work abroad, infringe commercial use restrictions, or allow others to use my account. By not reading them I'm taking a small risk because the Terms of Service are complicated and nested. Some apply to particular products and licences, others apply to all Autodesk products. I estimate it would take me an afternoon to navigate all of them, and longer to understand what exactly they mean. If I was buying a commercial licence for a large organisation, I'd almost certainly consult a contract specialist and lawyer.

However, if Autodesk are like other software vendors, they only get excited about licence conditions when they realise they're owed money! Or it comes to their notice the product is being seriously misused. Men in sheds are far less likely to get into trouble with Autodesk than a Registered Company or a Government Department.

I like Fusion360 very much, finding it intuitive. My main objection is the cloud managed licence, which lets Autodesk restrict functionality without notice: this can't be avoided by sticking with an earlier version because you don't have one – it's a cloud managed product.

Functionally F360 will do everything David Clarke wants and more. It's David's potential commercial use of the hobby licence that might cause bother, but its a small thing: he could stay legal by learning on the free version and buying a licence later if it turns out to be necessary.

Dave

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Alan's comments about having integrated software did ring some bells with me. As the owner of a small business (some decades ago) it was wonderful to move to MS Office – after some years of struggling with the costs and incompatibilities (both internal and with customers) of using products like 2020, Wordperfect, Dbase etc. Suddenly there was a file standard that cost less and which rapidly became universal. Of course many folk still hated MS, including my Lady admin staff who were addicted to WP. However, I don't see quite the same advantages with using Fusion for everything.

Going back in time, I wanted to move on from TC 2D. I'd already tried Fusion 360 and decided it wasn't for me. MEW had been promoting Alibre (the six month free deal) but I'd discovered Solid Edge CE in early/mid 2020. It seemed to meet all my current and future criteria and was free to download & run locally. I started my SE journey.

Shortly afterwards, Fusion (Autodesk) announced changes to their free license to take effect (mostly) in October 2020. A quick reminder of the changes that they announced back then (e.g. some 18 months ago)

• Project storage is limited to 10 active and editable documents
• Exports are limited to a small number of file types. Thankfully this still includes STL files but alas, DXF, DWG, PDF exports are all gone
• Perhaps most importantly to the Makerverse, STEP, SAT, and IGES file types can no longer be exported, the most common files for those who want to edit a design using different software.
• 2D drawings can now only be single sheet, and can only be printed or plotted
• Rendering can now only be done locally, so leveraging cloud-based rendering is no longer possible
• CAM support has been drastically cut back: no more multi-axis milling, probing, automatic tool changes, or rapid feeds, but support for 2, 2.5, and 3 axis remains
• All support for simulation, generative design, and custom extensions has been removed

They initially also stopped STEP file export but re-instated that after much outcry online. This all happened pretty much overnight and users had no choice in the matter. I know that there are 'work-arounds' to most of these issues but they are still there – and further changes can be implemented at any time & overnight.

I also take the point about the Cloud being pervasive these days but I see a real difference in accessing my Bank account online and doing the same for my (many hours of) CAD work. The Bank can change their online access to my money but ultimately cannot deny me access to it (I sincerely hope!). I'm not sure that's true of any work done in Fusion 360?

I back up my systems (including all my CAD work) locally but should I want to keep back-up copies sync'ed with online storage, then I have a (free) 5Gb 'OneDrive' that will do so. As I use a laptop, accessing my work from anywhere is a bit of a red-herring – and I don't need to log-in every two weeks to keep any work I've done "offline" either – all my work is done and stored "off-line".

So SE meets my current needs completely. It is a fully parametric, commercial standard 2D/3D CAD system that fully supports 3D Print and which also supports sheet metal and weldment designs. It has comprehensive CAE facilities too. I have a number of friends who (like myself) dabble in electronics, who have produced PCB 'gerbers' for me. None of them use Fusion to do so. I've produced (using SE-CE) .STLs for them to 3D print enclosures in exchange. I'm really not sure CNC (CAM) will be something I will ever need (or can afford).

So, we get back to Horses for Courses. I remain delighted with Solid Edge – I believe others would find it fits their needs very well too. I understand the popularity of Fusion 360 but I'll keep pointing out that there are excellent alternative 3D CAD systems available, that may suit some peoples needs better.

Regards,

IanT

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

I think I will dig out my old Turbo Cad 3D version 21. Sounds a lot less trouble.

Assuming I can find my licence code in 20 years of back emails.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Whichever of the better (more capable) 3D CAD systems you choose David, all will involve a good deal of time and effort, which is why once you've invested that time and effort, you become somewhat biased towards that particular system. Fusion was the first commercial grade 3D CAD to be made available for 'free' and it's gained a large following.

As a long-term TurboCAD user, I tried to use TC's 3D capabilities and decided it wasn't able to compete with modern parametric systems. If you want to make your articles of broad interest, then obviously using one of the free commercial CAD offerings make good sense. Fusion 360 is the most popular of these products but has it's potential downsides (as does Solid Edge of course).

I think your desire to write about 3D CAD, then 3D Printing and go on to CAM (CNC) is very ambitious, certainly if starting from little actual experience with a modern 3D CAD – but I certainly would not want to discourage you!

However, you have (of course) already made up your mind in this area.

Regards,

IanT

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by David-Clark 1 on 07/04/2022 15:15:10:

I think I will dig out my old Turbo Cad 3D version 21. Sounds a lot less trouble.

Assuming I can find my licence code in 20 years of back emails.

Let that be a lesson to us all – never confuse the customer.

Having said which, I must point out that no-one recommended the version of TurboCAD sold in 2014!

If there's any intention to move later to anything more modern, a word of warning about TurboCAD and other 2D-centric packages. The different mindset needed causes many to come unstuck whilst attempting to switch to newer 3D CAD. Hurts experts more than novices because experts come massively skilled with a bunch of techniques the software doesn't support or need, and the expert blows a fuse because none of his tried and tested 2D methods work. TurboCAD is a good choice if you already know it, or it fits your way of thinking. Lots of people like it!

Dave

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

I have not made up my mind.it is just that I have quite a few drawings in d for and turbo cad format I want to access. Most of what I want to do can be done with 2D and add the z axis manually.

I have a lot of industry cad cam experience but out of date.

I thank I started out with draftc, a shareware program from 20 odd years ago.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

David,

"draftc" or "Draft Choice"? I started with Draft Choice from Trius Inc about 25 years ago. Trius, at that time, also produced AsEasyAs, a Lotus123 spreadsheet clone. Both programs are still available via the internet along with free licences.

Draft Choice was available for either DOS or Windows, but I found that as Windows "progressed" – haha – so Draft Choice became more and more unreliable until I was forced into upgrading, my eventual choice being DesignCAD 2000. DesignCad is still available, but is not easy to find, especially in the UK. The reason for my choice of DesignCad was that it appeared to be the nearest to Draft Choice. I did try TurboCad v. 4, then v.6 & v.7 but could not get on with them after the simplicity and ease of use of Draft Choice, the final straw being when TurboCad crashed my computer requiring a complete re-setup as if it was a new install. Having said that, I am aware that plenty of people do find TurboCad very usable.

Peter G. Shaw

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

It's all very well harking back to 20+ year old software, but David wants to write articles for a modern audience, so in my opinion, the articles should be relevant to readily available software that will appeal to the target demographic, who, by definition, are dipping their respective tootsies into the CAD/CAM scene.

John

[IanTParticipant @iant]

David – whilst Solid Edge supports a number of different drawing types for 3D (parts, assemblies etc) – it's 'Draft' documents are essentially just 2D drawings and you can import your existing TC work into SE Draft format using .DXF files. SE Draft documents also support 'layers' which you should find very useful when coming from TC.

I've imported some of my TC drawings in this way and it's generally worked very well, although SE quickly highlighted how many 'un-joined' snaps I had in my older TC work. With some of my more complex TC drawings (where I had everything in a single model) it did help to save a simpler version that contained just the object I wanted to model in 3D. Once imported into Draft, you can modify/save your .DXFs in native mode using SE's 2D 'Sketching' tools (which are provided only in the Draft mode). However, these tools are pretty much the same as those you use when 3D sketching, so do not then need re-learning. You might find this a simpler route to get to know a new CAD system before diving straight into the full 3D works – a half-way house so to speak.

There are also features within SE that will take 2D 1st/3rd angle drawings and convert them straight to 3D drawings but that's still a bit beyond my current paygrade I'm afraid. Generally, I've found it easier to just import the most detailed 2D 'face' directly into a 'Part' document and then simply modify/extrude it manually using the 3D tools. Very easy to do with simpler things like loco frames etc and it can save a deal of work.

I don't know what Fusion is capable of in this area (in terms of DXF import/2D drawing etc) – others will have to advise you. All these modern systems are very capable but they do differ in the detail I imagine.

I certainly think this approach might be better than trying to use retrograde/old "shareware". Have a look at my link at the beginning of this thread to see the pros/cons of SE. You may prefer to use Mac or Linux for instance, in which case SE will not be for you. But Solid edge has much to recommend it and may be a very good fit in your case!

Regards,

IanT

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

I'm somewhat surprised that nobody has mentioned a fundamental difference between F360 and all the other top-of-the league CAD systems. The difference is that, as far as I'm aware, F360 is the only system that incorporates bottom-up and top-down design paradigms. All the others use bottom-up.

In the bottom-up system, each part is modelled in it's own file, and the complete model is created in an assembly. Parts and assemblies live in individual files. Contrast this with the top-down system where all the parts are modelled in the same file, where they are also assembled. F360 supports both systems.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

This is why the 10 active file limit is not such an issue a some make out. Even then it's only a couple of clicks of any unlimited number of files to make them editable again.

With maybe 50-100 parts in a stationary engine that 10 active file limit could be 1000parts.

Those that are not active and editable can still be opened and viewed without having to do anything.

Edited By JasonB on 08/04/2022 07:13:21

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I don't think your assertion is true Gary – I think 'Top Down' vs 'Bottom Up' is probably more just about how you decide to approach your design work, although I'm certainly a bottom up kind of guy!

CAD basics: Top down modeling (3dcadworld.com)

However should I ever need/want to do 'Top Down' – then Solid Edge can certainly do so.

How to Create a Top Down Assembly | Solid Edge (siemens.com)

I suspect this will be true of other commercial CAD systems too, given it's uses within a Team environment.

Regards,

IanT

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Thanks IanT, I was unaware of SE's ability to do it. We live and learn.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Is everyone checking their recommendation to make sure it meets David's stated requirements before posting? They are:

• Cost less than £100
• Allow commercial use – purpose includes writing articles for paid publication
• To make a start on 3D-printing

The cost requirement is met by many elderly versions of paid for software, shareware, open-source and trial licenced versions of current products.

As far as I've researched all the trial licenced versions of current products forbid commercial use. Finding out what the terms and conditions are requires reading a mass of tedious small-print. Solid Edge is typical:

“Trial” license means a license for a limited term as identified in the Order, granted solely for evaluation purposes and not for any commercial, professional or production purposes, and not for training or benchmarking

Their Terms and Conditions mean the sub-£100 versions of Fusion360, Solid Edge and similar don't meet an important requirement. Not because the functionality isn't wonderful, but because the small print matters. In David's case the Ts and Cs are a barrier. He can't just download F360 or SE and do everything he needs of them.

3D-printing pretty much demands a 3D-CAD package. Although gcode can be written manually from a 2D drawing, it's extremely hard work, time-consuming, and error prone. Much easier to use computer software to model the required shape, slice or mesh it, and then generate g-code automatically. All push-button stuff. Although David said 'most of what I do can be done with 2D and add the z axis manually', which is fine for manual workshop drawings, the technique isn't a practical way of doing 3D printing.

Although I'm sure there must be others, FreeCAD is the only new tool I positively know meets all David's requirements. Mainly because FreeCAD's licence does not restrict how the product is used and there are no fees to pay.

Dave

[IanTParticipant @iant]

So when people produce material (i.e. articles) – both online and in print about Fusion 360 – Autodesk would see that as a commercial activity and sue the author? Youtube'ers get paid by the number of views and there's no lack of them around. Haven't checked recent ME/MEW articles about CAD but some of those may have had Fusion content too.

I'm sorry Dave – I don't think so. I worked for one of the largest software publishers in the world and their UK 'Infringement' team didn't even get out of bed for less than £1M and that was several decades ago.

I strongly that suspect that both Autodesk and Siemens would see any article about their CAD products just as free publicity (assuming they even notice it) – and also assuming David didn't write anything defamatory about them. After all, that's why they make 'Hobbyists' version available isn't it? – to spread the word.

IanT

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

David posted the link to F360's UK site that says "non commercial" use covers under $1000USD. So unless Morton's are going to up what they pay per page I expect he will be OK

If he starts selling bucket loads of castings from his 3D patterns that he mentioned then that may be a different matter

Edited By JasonB on 08/04/2022 15:00:28

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by IanT on 08/04/2022 14:52:24:

So when people produce material (i.e. articles) – both online and in print about Fusion 360 – Autodesk would see that as a commercial activity and sue the author? Youtube'ers get paid by the number of views and there's no lack of them around. Haven't checked recent ME/MEW articles about CAD but some of those may have had Fusion content too.

I'm sorry Dave – I don't think so. I worked for one of the largest software publishers in the world and their UK 'Infringement' team didn't even get out of bed for less than £1M and that was several decades ago.

I strongly that suspect that both Autodesk and Siemens would see any article about their CAD products just as free publicity (assuming they even notice it) – and also assuming David didn't write anything defamatory about them. After all, that's why they make 'Hobbyists' version available isn't it? – to spread the word.

IanT

It depends entirely on the seller's attitude. Having been a major buyer, I can assure readers that software suppliers get excited about much less than £1M! And it's not just about money – some are extraordinarily keen to protect their brand and to crush precedents. But it's absolutely true they go for big bucks rather than pennies.

However, David being an ex-Editor, not an innocent abroad, puts me off recommending he use a hobby version on the assumption the owner won't notice, and on the second assumption the owner will be happy to ignore the infringement if he does.

The rights belong to the licensor, not to us. It's the owner who decides to unleash the hounds, not me, and if a lawyer hunts David down, Ian's well-meant advice won't save him.

One way David could stay safe is to buy a licence, F360 being $325 pa at the moment. Another is to ask for permission, which I agree he's likely to get. As neither is difficult, and FreeCAD is open, why should David take a risk by breaking the Terms and Conditions?

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

In the scheme of things the F360 licence is not that much.

As writing for the mags is just a way of sharing what I may well have done on a forum anyway and I still have a proper job. I treat what income it does pay as a way to cover my Alibre Pro license, Photobucket hosting fee and it also covers the cost of materials and tooling replacement for the engine being featured and usually a couple of others too.

You only need two installments of an article and that has paid the yearly licence

[HuubParticipant @huub]

When I last year bought 3D printer I was forced to finally learn 3D design software. My Fusion360 version complained that the 3 year free licence was passed. At that time, I couldn't find a free Fusion360 version to download. So I decided to try Freecad. I forced my self for 2 weeks to see a Youtube video every day and that worked. You really have to put time into 3D design software.
Then after 2 month using Freecad, I was sorry that I didn't use 3D design software before. For me it is so more productive than 2D progecad and some other packages I used for a long time.

Freecad is absolute not error free. There are a lot of small bugs that cost (at start) a lot of time to solve. But every day it goes better and now I am a very happy Freecad (0.20 version) hobby user.

If Fusion360 could be installed locally and the free licence would be free for ever, than I definitely would go for Fusion360 because most of the dutch CNC zone users, prefer Fusion360. But if Fusion360 changes their licence policy, a lot of my design history could be lost and I wont take that risk.
If you use CAD software commercially, I wouldn't recommend Freecad because every hour you spent on bug fixing is a lost production hour.

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Hi t,here

looks like I opened a can of worms.

I respect copyright and would not use something I did not have the rights to.

I think there was a misunderstanding about, what I wanted to do with 3D CAD.
I wanted to illustrate articles about how to design components and use a 3D printer, not teach 3D design. Then components would probably be cast from the 3D patterns. Nothing would be sold but I would get paid fo my articles.

The new publishing company is undoubtedly a multimillion £ company and would be a likely target for Fusion Soft to go after. Not me probably.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

As Business Development Manager for my divisions software products in UK a long time ago, one of my main targets centred around product adoption – in other words market share. I spent a great deal of my time presenting and promoting our products to both trade and end users. I was always very happy to hear from anyone who could help me promote my products to a wider audience. I therefore very much doubt that any Marketing Department worth their salt would object to someone promoting their products in a positive light.

However, it's really not a point that will interest most people here.

David, why not just buy an Alibre CAD license and be done with it. MEW has actively promoted Alibre in the past and I assume that they have an existing relationship with them. You may even get a 'freebie' license from Alibre marketing to base your work on. I have no idea how Alibre CAD compares in detail with other modern CAD packages but it looked quite capable from the MEW articles and Jason hasn't moved his allegiance yet.

Of course, very many more hobbyist CAD users will use 'free' licenses from the likes of Autodesk and Siemens than will ever purchase Alibre licenses. Whilst many ME/MEW articles are fairly generic in nature (e.g. you don't need a specific 'brand' of lathe/mill to do most operations) that's not quite so true in the CAD space I'm afraid, although it may be more so in terms of 3D printing.

Regards,

IanT

PS In support of Huub's comments, whilst it's been a good while since I last tried FreeCAD, it was very much a Curates Egg back then. From memory some things worked very well, others didn't (or maybe I just couldn't make them). I'm sure FC will have improved but frankly (as I found a better alternative) I'm not tempted to go and take another look unless I really need to.

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