Bassett-Lowke 2 1/2 inch flying scotsman

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Can I just ask Julian do you the boiler design is poor or the whole train, because maybe I could get a better designed boiler made?

Maybe someone from the G3 society may have this train and be able to give some advice on if to bother.

Many thanks

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppose a lot depends on what you want out of the hobby.

Some people seem to be very focused on how many passangers a loco will haul and how many circles they can go round in using one tea spoon of coal.

Others are quite happy to have something that will do a few circuits a couple of times a year and look nice on display for the rest of the time.

Then there are even those who once the subject has been built and proven to run will then hardly ever run it again and move onto building the next one.

I guess you need to decide if you fall into the first catagory or somewhere within the last two. If the later then a couple of mods to the boiler to bring it upto current safety levels and construction methods would likely do. Also consider where you will run the engine when it is done, if there are only high level scenic tracks near you then not much point in going down teh passenger hauling route.

J

J

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Thanks Jason.

I think I'd like a safe model that would go up and down a track if I was ever to take it any where.

I will have to see what the changes to the boiler could be that would make it a better design.

I really appreciate everyone taking there time to answer my questions.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Derek,

If you have a look at ME for 1981/82 Derek Collin and Paul Wiese described a 2.5"g Flying Scotsman (there were later corrections published in 1992). The boiler is descibed in the 5th May 1982 edition, being a tradtional LBSC type boiler for solid fuel with large combustion chamber and syphon tubes in same.

You would have to study the drawings very carefully to see if it would fit your chassis.

Cheers,

Julian

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I think Jason asks a very good question Derek and I'm afraid that you've not completely clarified things to my mind.

You want an engine "that will go up and down the track if you ever go anywhere" – but perhaps the key question should – do you want to sit behind it (and be pulled along) or do you want it to pull some scale stock instead, with you "driving" it from the side of the track?

You see Gauge '3' (2.5" ) is both the smallest of the passenger hauling 'gauges' and the largest of the scenic 'scales'. It sits right on the dividing line between where it is possible to both be pulled along by your engine or used as part of a model railway (such as in Gauge 1 or 16mm). This is broadly why there is both a National 2.5" Association and a Gauge '3' Society. The Association is focused on the 'driver' hauling (MES) side of the gauge and the Society on the garden railway side of it. The Association hold 'Rallies' at Model Engineering Societies (at least those that have a 2.5" gauge track) around the country and the Society hold their Garden Get-togethers at Host Members gardens. indeed many G3 Members are also members of the Association (and vice versa) and do both!

I would take the comments about old technology/designs with a pinch of salt. Basset-Lowke designed their engines for a particular market – which in those days did tend to be wealthy owners who wanted a garden railway for either themselves or their sons – often both. They were not intended for passenger hauling, so the "Battle of the Boilers" is only relevant in my opinion within the context of a passenger hauling requirement (which was what LBSC championed). For "Garden" use – spirit firing is perfectly acceptable and there are many G1 enthusiasts who still prefer it to gas-firing.

And with respect to that "only for wealthy gentleman" comment – the main cost of restoring your engine will be the boiler. If you are having a boiler made, then it would be built to up-to date standards by default (in safety terms one capable of passing a boiler test as per the SFs Green Book). You could also choose the firing method used. I think an experienced boiler maker would be able to modify an existing design (as I've previously suggested) and come up with something that would work very well. The quality of the rest of the engine would be entirely up to whatever standard you wanted to build it to (or have it built to). If you think this is going to be expensive – then I can assure you that it will be much less expensive to do this work in 2.5" than any of the larger 'passenger hauling' gauges.

Whilst garden railways might have once been the domain of the rich (or at least those with large gardens) that is not the case these days – as many who model in G3, G Scale, G1 and 16mm can attest to. In fact you don't even have to own a garden – a (former) Chairman of the G3 Society used to live in a flat with no garden at all.

Perhaps the best advice I can give you Derek is to contact the National 2.5" Association and the G3 Society and ask if you could pop along to one of their local Rallies or Garden Get-Togethers. You can see some real engines in steam and meet some real people who own and run them. This might help you to decide what would be the best route for you to take. If you PM me – I can make any necessary introductions (I'm a member of both organisations). You will also be able to get some expert advice if you decide to restore your locomotive.

But I'd find out where your heart really lies first.

Regards,

 

IanT

Edited By IanT on 20/07/2016 11:40:18

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Hi Ian

That's a brilliant explanation and I'm very greatful, I would want the train if I ever managed to take it to a track to drive itself around, I don't want it or need it to pull me around.

I would however like to get a boiler made that's more to today's standards.

Many thanks again

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Anyone who wants a small loco 'better suited' to scenic work to pull them around a track sometimes could with modern technology make a power assist driving trolley since modern batteries and motors make this a more practical proposition than previously.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Good – that makes things a little clearer Derek.

There are two aspects to "boiler design" – the first is the 'safety' one and the second is the boilers' ability to generate enough steam to power the engine (and any load). If you have the boiler professionally built, I'm very certain it will be to "current" (e.g. modern) standards, which basically means it has to be built to "acceptable standards" and to be able to pass a boiler inspection as described in the Southern Federations 'Green Book'. If you decide to have a crack at it yourself (not an impossible task btw) then there is a lot of information around to guide you, but the best thing would be to work with the boiler tester (who will test/check your work) for guidance on materials and methods. Again, all this is considerably helped by being a member of your local MES or one of the national societies.

With regards a boilers ability to "steam" there are a number of factors involved but the requirement within a garden environment is a bit less demanding than that of 'driver' hauling. I wouldn't worry about that at the moment.

One other thing that you might want to consider (prompted partly by Bazyles comments above) would be to fit an electric motor to power the engine (with on-board batteries). This may be heresy to some but it has been done before and in fact (if done with this in mind) the engine can still be retro-fitted back to steam power later. I know at least one example where the builder decided to take this approach with an engine originally designed for steam power – all the 'works' are basically there (and operational) except the working boiler – a kind of half-way house. The motor/gearbox can be in the engine or the tender. This may be worth thinking about if money is short..

If you want to continue this discussion off-line – I'd be happy to help – please PM me.

Regards,

IanT

[john noble 1Participant @johnnoble1]

Hi Derek,

I'm currently building one of these and I can get the drawings copied or scanned if you wish.

I've had lots of enjoyment building it as well as gnashing of teeth. It's nearing completion,will have the Smithees boiler but will be paraffin fired.

You can see my austerity pacific "Canley Phantom" if you put gauge 3 forum Canley Phantom into Google. It's not brilliant and purists will have a fit but as long as I eventually see it steam is all that matters.

I wish you well with your build

Charley

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Hi John noble 1

I've sent you a PM

Regards Derek

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Hi everyone.

Just a quick update, I'm currently stripping the train down to the parts I do have, has taken two weeks working removing the rust and paint but I can finally see clean metal.

Hopefully next will be to start to build some parts from scratch as I have no castings, so far I've made a new cab roof which I'm happy with considering I have limited tools.

Hoping to get a full set of drawings as I'm building from just the booklet, but the drawings are tricky to find for sure.

I have boiler ones but looking for everything else, I will try and keep my updates coming.😉

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Quick update I gave pretty much all the drawings I beef from John N, thanks very much.

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

I shall write that again, thanks to John for the drawings.

My tablet does predictive writing which is why for some reason it said beef

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Tis a meaty thread this one. Ians suggestion is the way to go, Steam Trains can be very addictive.

Searching on youtube will bring up some videos as well.

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Hi everyone

I have a quick question please, the manual says to tap a 3/16 hole into the cylinder cover plate, and to use a 3/16 copper pipe for the steam, however every union I can find is to fit a 5/16 tapped hole.

There's not much meat to tap into and it's not that big for sure, do you know if you actually buy a 3/16 Union which will fit a 3/16 tapped hole and to take a 3/16 pipe?

Many thanks in advance

Derek

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

On some small engines you may find the end of the pipe needs threading and screwiung straight into the casting with a bit of sealant

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

For an exhaust pipe this might be OK, but not for a steam pipe!

Just goes to show the obsolescent original design I'm afraid.

Cheers,

Julian

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I suppose all steam engines are obsolescent by design then , given the age they were designed in ?

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Hi

I will work it out, part of the fun trying to make it work.

I am a 38 year guy who is trying to build something that was destined to be thrown away, something that was probably started by someone like you many years ago.

Every problem has a solution, well hopefully in this case.

Kind regards Derek

[derek blakeParticipant @derekblake72550]

Having spent all weekend on my hands a knees building a boiler casing by hand I don't mind if it's an old model, if I was to give up now over a union that's hard to get id cry over the cut brass and sore fingers.

So I do appreciate your input Julian but I'd prefer help with a solution over rubbing it in that this train is older the me, but it was the only train I could afford to try and build.

I work full time and struggle to keep my head above water, I had to save up to just buy the brass so I can't just give up over it being obsolete which of course anything that's not built anymore is.

Regards Derek

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Good attitude, Derek

Sorry, I can't advise … But you have my moral support.

MichaelG.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Derek I hope you keep going with this project, without people taking on this type of difficult restoration a lot of our heritage would just get binned.

I've never built a boiler in my life so cannot help, but I second Michael's comments and wish you good luck.

Hope you will keep us updated with progress.

Edited By V8Eng on 31/07/2016 23:42:56

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Derek, if you fail to find a ready made union of the correct size you may be able to modify one with a 5/16" thread by sawing off the 5/16" part and then threading the hole to take a piece of 3/16" threaded tube, or even silver soldering a piece in. It might well be a bit of a fiddly job one way or another, but I think it is doable.

Regards Nick.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Derek.

Just out of interest have you tried here for advice etc?

**LINK**

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I'd suggest making up a short bronze collar threaded on the OD to suit the smallest union you can find to fit the 3/16 pipe, and also thread it into the steam chest cover. Make it a loose thread in the cover so some silver solder will penetrate. Be sure to get everything REALLY clean and use good amount of flux. Silver solder it in place on the steam chest cover pointing up. The collar will need an angled seat on the open end ID for an olive. You could buy a std size nut and olive or you could make up a custom olive and union nut, to get a smaller than usual size. Exact angles on collar seat olives and nuts are not critical as long as they match within a degree or two and have good finishes. Once you have the union nut and olive , place the nut loose on the 3/16 pipe well back from the joint and silver solder the olive in place on the tube end. When assembled the nut will then secure it to the collar on the steam chest and the olive will seal it steam tight to the collar if made with good finishes and aligned well.

Oh and one other important step – don't pay any attention to naysayers talking about obsolescence etc. just have a go. Er ….You probably knew that……JD

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