Basic Clock Design

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

It seems to me that there is a lot to learn about clock design. I wanted to join a clock-making course but was advised that due to my lack of experience it would be very likely that I would be dissapointed with my choice of design by the time I finished the clock. I've been on weekly evening class since and after a couple of years I can appreciate the advice… I still know very little about clocks compared to what there is to learn.

Trying to design the perfect clock for the first build would be ambitious. I'm not convinced that is Jame's intention. A bit more about the ambitions would help focus advice: Maybe either talk of Robin and remontoire is going a bit far, or if not, then we should be talking about all the other devices used in horology to improve reliable time keeping.

Maybe a good approach would be to find a pre-existing design with detailed build guide and them maybe make some personal adjustments.

One thing to consider with the current design: a fusee on the drive will greatly extend the winding period which may be just as an important reason for introduction of fusees generally.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The one that interested me was this one. Having some problems working out just how it trips though.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 13/04/2016 13:37:18:

Why Michael ? They got clocks in and they were fine when they sold them which strongly suggests that they do know what they are doing and even had repeat business. Gone now.

.

… Because that ^^^ operating model [which is pretty-much what I assumed] suggested to me that the price they paid for clocks 'bought-in' might be lower than it should. ["Not much call for those weight-driven clocks, madam … they're all troublesome."] … With a somewhat different story when they came to sell it.

Yes … I think they knew exactly what they were doing.

I know not who they were, and you say they have stopped trading; so it doesn't really matter.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 13/04/2016 13:58:15

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Not really related to the thread Michael but actually they were a pretty decent bunch and were even known to go out and see why a clock they had sold no longer worked especially if it had a pendulum. I used the word tat because the shop was nothing remotely like a high class antique clock store and didn't charge the sort of prices that they do anyway. Quality would generally be lower too.

This one is near by as well and their premises are not exactly awe inspiring, prices probably much higher and buys in just the same way. It's called business.

**LINK**

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 13/04/2016 14:43:37:

… It's called business.

.

Noted

But you may be better seeking technical advice elsewhere.

Russell's brief summary on regulation, for example.

MichaelG.

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Posted by jaCK Hobson on 13/04/2016 13:41:55:

Trying to design the perfect clock for the first build would be ambitious. I'm not convinced that is Jame's intention. A bit more about the ambitions would help focus advice:

Jack: as you suspect, I am not looking to design the perfect clock. This will be my second clock, once I am ready to build it. I have a set of plans and instructions for a simple verge movement clock to do first. For a second clock, I know that I could modify somebody else's design, rather would rather try and learn enough to design and construct something that keeps reasonable time.

I have looked at remontoires, but, to be honest, am struggling to see how they actually work. Fascinating though they may be, I do not envisage building one into this design. Similarly, I have considered other types of escapements, such as the grasshopper design, but, again, this looks a trifle fiddly to start with.

Fusees are clearly the direction to take for a with a spring movement, but lacking any sort of screw cutting facility, I am more likely to veer towards weight drive after all with sufficient strength in the frame where it matters to support it.

I am really looking at this stage to complete a design for a basic movement that will run for about eight days and have a fair chance of being reasonably accurate and reliable. I also want the design to be an open wall clock with a delicate skeleton frame After that, I can think about cosmetics and any chimes.

I am also using this as a focus for learning to use CAD, in this instance Onshape.

Regards,

James.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by James Alford on 14/04/2016 07:10:35:

Posted by jaCK Hobson on 13/04/2016 13:41:55:

Trying to design the perfect clock for the first build would be ambitious. I'm not convinced that is Jame's intention. A bit more about the ambitions would help focus advice:

Jack: as you suspect, I am not looking to design the perfect clock. …

I have looked at remontoires, but, to be honest, am struggling to see how they actually work. Fascinating though they may be, I do not envisage building one into this design. …

.

James, and jaCK,

If I led this discussion off-topic by mentioning the remontoire, then I apologise.

There are two different reasons that one might use a remontoire (a) to improve the timekeeping of [typically] a spring-driven mechanism, or (b) to reduce the physical loadings on a weight-driven clock.

It was for reason (b) that I suggested James could use an electrically powered remontoire [call it electrical rewinding if you will] and thereby retain the advantage of weight-drive in his lightweight skeletal frame.

Again; apologies for any disruption …

I will observe with interest, but not interfere any further.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/04/2016 07:43:01

[KettrinboyParticipant @kettrinboy]

Hi James

just a thought but looking at the drawing on your original post you say what have i forgotten , so where are the frame stays going to go , i would think that the frame plates need to be a lot wider to accomodate probably 4 stays , unless you are going to have just 1 at either end of a narrower plate , ive got a similar design of clock nearly drawn up but my plates are wider so the 4 stays at each corner of the plates clear the outside dia of the barrel and largest wheels.

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Michael. I appreciate your suggestions and whilst I may not use a remontoire, reading the links has given me plenty of other things to consider, especially friction losses. Please keep the suggestions coming.

Kettrinboy: thank you for the suggestions. I should have said that the plates as shown are simply there at the moment to give the geartrain support. I shall bear your suggestions in mind when I do the frames. Have you any pictures of you design?

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Posted by James Alford on 14/04/2016 08:52:10:
Michael. I appreciate your suggestions and whilst I may not use a remontoire, reading the links has given me plenty of other things to consider, especially friction losses. Please keep the suggestions coming.

And I didn't mean to discourage discussion – I hate that when people tell me to shut up.

I now get the point that a simple electric driven remontoire may be a … simple… solution. A great example is that used on Brugess Clock B http://www.frodsham.com/burgess-regulator/. Well worth considering.

However, the first thing that came to mind was something like I saw at the British Museum which looks a bit more fiddly:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&assetid=309818001&objectid=55352

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I've just refreshed my memory on Elliot Isaac'c comments about his beginners clock. That's this one

**LINK**

He comments that it's time keeping is circa 5min per week. The magazine also ran some modifications to it which basically increased the run time to well over 8 days. More or less twice as much spring as would be needed for that. He points out that this arrangement will give much better time keeping as only the outer windings of the spring are used. He also mentioned that the same could be achieved by winding the original design daily.

This might be worth bearing this in mind. A lot of spring or more frequent winding. One way of regulating old miscellaneous clocks is to vary how much they are wound up and how often. A bit every day tends to be a good option on many slate clocks etc.

I also heard the same thing from the tat shop. but thought I aught to mention a better source.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 14/04/2016 21:08:42:

I've just refreshed my memory on Elliot Isaac'c comments about his beginners clock. That's this one

**LINK**

< etc. >

I also heard the same thing from the tat shop. but thought I aught to mention a better source.

John

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… but I think this variant offers a much better solution.

MichaelG.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

I quite like the Vienesse Regulator type, and the dial is far easier to read that the 'English' type. I dont know why John's example should be poor – all the ones I've dealt with have been very very good. The cases are also rather nice.

I hesitate to suggest that from a model engineering point of view making a decent clock mechanism isnt really that difficult if you go about it the right way, and the methods we use will cause shock and horror amongst traditional Horologists.

As for choice of clock, I think the case etc is of more importance and how good your woodworking skills are – which perhaps is somewhat outside the remit of this forum. I got an A grade woodwork 'O' level, and arguably my woodwork is better than my metalwork these days!

Cheers,

Julian

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/04/2016 23:32:47:

.

… but I think this variant offers a much better solution.

MichaelG.

Michael,

That is the type of design that I envisage: thank you. By coincidence, although I have not seen that clock before, the plans that I have bought for my first clock are from the same person.

Regards,

James.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by James Alford on 15/04/2016 07:28:51:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/04/2016 23:32:47:

.

… but I think this variant offers a much better solution.

MichaelG.

Michael,

That is the type of design that I envisage: thank you. By coincidence, although I have not seen that clock before, the plans that I have bought for my first clock are from the same person.

Regards,

James.

Doh – who wants a wall clock – not me for one. We have the Vienna regulator and a modern one some where. I'm not sure where that went when it was taken down. Spring wound and kept good time. I really should have looked inside to see how they did that.

John

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[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Ajohnw on 14/04/2016 21:08:42:

He comments that it's time keeping is circa 5min per week.

That's dreadful! I built the John Parslow 15 day version and it easily achieves better than 1 min/week.  Half that if I wind it every week.

Russell.

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 15/04/2016 13:44:06

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Ajohnw on 13/04/2016 12:55:54:

Friction variations Russel especially over time.

That is not unique to weight driven clocks John and is usually caused by over lubricating. The only fault I have come across that is only found on weight driven clocks is a result of insufficient rigidity causing the weight to swing slightly in tune with the pendulum when the drop is the same as the pendulum length thus removing energy from the pendulum.

Russell.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

What I mentioned to them Russel was that there didn't seem to be a best time regulation setting available on the pendulum setings, It's hard to explain but say it was running fast and it's adjusted to slow it down. With fine adjustments it gets better and better and then goes the other way with a bit of a jump. They said weights and if I undid the weight canisters I would probably find that the weights inside allow adjustment. They might not even be the original weights.

The clock probably dated from around 1900 most likely before so has had a lot of use. It's been on the back burner for some time as far as I am concerned as I haven't really got sufficient space to get the movement out and check the escapement etc. It needs that really as the pendulum throw looks to be adjustable. Given a general look there was no signs of dust or too much oil etc.

Things are looking better on my workshop front – we've found a builder but my work area wont get sorted until the weather warms up.

Oh and in order to improve that wife gets a new kitchen.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 15/04/2016 17:06:06

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

Posted by Ajohnw on 15/04/2016 17:04:27:

It's hard to explain but say it was running fast and it's adjusted to slow it down.

Better is to adjust the running from slow to fast, that way the pendulum bob movement is more controlled.

Niko.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I went both ways numerous times Niko. It will be interesting to see if the tat shop was correct when I get round to it.

John

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[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

The easiest way to set the regulation on a clock with a reasonable pendulum length is to have a platform about half way up the pendulum rod. The adjustment on the pendulum bob is then made to set it to run slightly slow and small weights are added to the platform to raise the centre of gravity of the complete pendulum to speed it up by very fine amounts.

Russell.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

That I think is one of the ways Peter Heimenn suggests for the clocks he deals with in his book Russel which he reckons will hold 2sec per week. The book is called "Regulator Clock Construction". He gives 2 designs in it. Personally I think it's pretty good value compared with some.

My challenge is this beast.

I don't anticipate any problem with the mechanism but the 2 missing bits will be a challenge. The worst one being getting the colour of the "rose" shaped part correct. The tiny bit of missing woodwork may not be such a problem. The missing rose can be made from a plaster casting but getting the colour to match is another matter.

We're not minimalists here by the way in case some one doesn't notice.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

John,

You are probably aware; but I should mention [for the benefit of any novices reading his hread] that a 'proper' Regulator differs greatly, in construction and performance, from the typical 'Vienna Regulator' that you are having trouble with … 'though they do both have their place.

Now:

When I worked on my Mother's Vienna, it ran beautifully in my test stand, but was very troublesome when returned to her. … The reason turned-out to be that the glue holding the case together was failing … The flexing of the case robs energy from the pendulum.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

True Michael but the usual term for them is Vienna Regulator. They can keep good time as well. The book I mentioned contains two regulator designs. Much plainer animals although the month going one does show the movement fairly well.

An antique dealer sold it to me because of the 2 missing parts as small as they are at a very reasonable price all things considered. Having just checked ebay prices I am even more pleased with that aspect as it is basically sound.

We have another much smaller one in the hall that was very cheap – the top decorations missing. That one really should go in the bin as even with something suitable on top it just doesn't match the rest of the clock.

John

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[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

John, you can buy the rosettes for "Vienna" clocks in various sizes from Meadows and Passmore. As it's the middle one missing you could go a size up if they don't have the exact size you need.

Russell.

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