Bandsaw – wood and metal ?

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Finally after years of ridiculous hand sawing I've decided to get myself a bandsaw. I'm erring towards the tall standing type that are usually described as being for woodworking. However half the time I need to cut bits of metal, which in the worst case would be a 5 inch diameter bar of aluminium or steel plate up 1 inch thick.

Even with the right kind of blade fitted I can see an issue with this type of saw is that the table doesn't move so one would have to constantly push the workpiece towards the blade. With heavy lumps of metal this could be challenging and depending on how one chooses to do it, possibly dangerous too.

My question is therefore: Am I 'barking up the wrong tree' in thinking that a woodworking saw would do for lumps of metal ? If so, what would you recommend ?

Gerry

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Woodworking bandsaws run too fast for metal cutting, particularly ferrous. The blades will be quickly ruined. My small bandsaw is geared down to a speed of about 200ft/min and that seems fairly good.

Also you would find that attempting to cut large diameter round bar held by hand on the saw table is NOT advisable. The bar will rotate and you will not be able to grip it.

Can't help with a suggestion of a bandsaw for taking work of the size that you mention, but it will be big. I use an old Rapidor hacksaw which will take bar up to 6".

Edited By Clive Brown 1 on 11/04/2021 11:53:20

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi Gerry I think you would be much better of with a horizontal type band saw than a vertical saw. You can get a horizontal saw which can be configured to be used as a vertical saw and that gives you options. If you were to try and cut a 5 inch diamiter bar on a vertical saw it would be challenging but thin plate is better on a vertical saw. I have a small horizontal saw from Chester machine tools and a vertical saw from Machine Mart and I use the horizontal saw most of the time but the vertical saw is used to cut wood, plastics, and non-ferrous metals and eavan with the correct blade is useless for steel etc.

David

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Gerry,

At the last school where I worked we had a floor-standing bandsaw which could take either wood- or metal-cutting blades. In the pedestal was a series of v-belts and pulleys to select the appropriate cutting speed, which was much slower for metal and required a different blade. Unfortunately I can't remember the make or model.

I did once witness a colleague cutting metal with the woodworking blade. The sparks were quite impressive, and the technician had to replace the blade afterwards…

George B.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

For many years now I have been using a steel framed woodworking bandsaw modified for blade speed of 150 fpm an using an HSS bimetal blade. This saw cuts steel or other metals as well as wood with excellent results.

Typically woodwork machines run many times faster than 150 fpm and have lighter blades and lighter frames, not suitable for metal cutting. However If you can find a woodworking saw that can be modified to run at 150 fpm and having a steel frame, it may work fine. Otherwise look for a metalworking saw.

You may also be able to find an inexpensive Chinese import handheld portable metalworking bandsaw, which you could use handheld of course but it could be mounted to a bench frame and a table fitted to it if need be.

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 11/04/2021 12:45:54

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

As all said the speed is one factor, but 1 inch steel and 5 inch diameter aluminium you would need some serious holding fixture that slides easily supporting the work both sides of the blade. If you don’t there could be some snatch as the part gets close to cut off. Also the time taken to stand there feeding the material through. Better to get the steel plate flame cut.

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

In the past I wondered if I could get away with one bandsaw for wood and metal but it is not really a good option. The speeds are different and so are the blades. You would be forever changing the blades and that can be a real pain. I ended up with one of the 6 by 4" horizontal bandsaws for the metal and a vertical one for wood. A wood one will cut aluminium at a pinch but not large chunks of the stuff.

Doug

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

With those requirements a vertical saw designed for metal will have a decent throat width for the plate and if you make up a sled then round and section can be cut safely.

I use my old woodworking bandsaw for nonferrous sheet/plate and before getting the Femi it wa salso used for bar, with a bimetal HHS blade at woodworking speeds it cut OK, this is 3" square 6082 but it would be too fast for steel.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I have a Femi 782 which is designed for metal and will cut up to 65 mm bar iirc. Jason has one too I think? I also have a table for it to use it in vertical mode for sheet. It will cut wood though not designed for it. Highly recommended. Stakesys is a good supplier.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Many of the older startrite machines say s14,18,24 have 10 speeds with 5 belt positions and a 2 speed gearbox they will happily cut anything.

but I wouldn’t want to stand there cutting 5” of steel with it

i have a s14 5 and cut alloy plate regularly on it up to 3 inch thick

but mainly i use it for woodwork and a 4×6 bandsaw for metal stock

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Hi Gerry

If you are exclusively wanting a cut off saw for metal then vertical bandsaws are not really suitable for large diameter round bar. Plate and rectangular section yes.

I bought one of these from Axminster Tool a few years ago and it has saved me a lot of effort. It is arranged for a slow speed step on the drive pully with the addition of a variable speed drive. Slow speeds are a must if you are cutting metal and of course you need fast speeds for wood.

Axminster Tools Metal Bandsaw

I find it excellent for cutting blanks for clockwheels and frames in Brass. Steel plate up to 1" thick and large billets of aluminium. I'm not saying thats all it will do just what I have done to date. Most usefull for removing the waste from odd shaped lumps before machining. And obviously it's in it's element for wood.

I hope that helps.

regards Martin

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I have a Startright upright bandsaw for wood cutting [was never happy with it, even for that ], tried cutting light sheet steel with it, learned very quickly that it did not like it and it was rather scary. Speed is much too fast and material too difficult to control, and this was even with a suitable blade.

Horses for courses, I think. As regards cutting 5" round anything, you are a brave man !

[egaParticipant @ega]

larry phelan:

Sorry too hear that your Startrite bandsaw – they used to be made just down the road from me – is not performing well.

I have had some success cutting sheet steel with a Rage/Evolution blade on the radial arm saw.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I have a horizontal, metal-cutting bandsaw. The frame can be positioned in the vertical position, so I have made up a frame, with horizontal table, which is held in place by the vise. It needs extra vertical support, for the table, in this mode.

I doubt it would cope with timber cuts as well as a vertical startrite, but that is not required as I have access to a wood sawing bandsaw. The vertical startrite (for timber) that I used a long time ago was often used for cutting curves (with narrow blades). This may be an issue.

As JH says, Stakesys is a good website to check out. They actually show a lightweight table kit for the 782XL saw @ £85. The 782XL will cut 100 x 85mm ‘rectangular section’ (they quote 95mm square).

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Buy a second hand vertical bandsaw designed for wood. replace the motor with a small 3 phase motor controlled by a VFD. Buy some HSS toothed bandsaw blades – Happy days.

Just be careful that blades don't "snatch" when cutting larger round bar / tube etc.

Bob

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The ideal world is one of each – possibly cheaper than buying a VFD and less hassle blade changing

Otherwise, as suggested above a metal cutting one you can put in 'upright' mode. Plus if you get stuck, it's easier to handsaw through a sleeper than through a 2" metal bar! (Voice of experience).

Neil

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Axminster sell a vertical bandsaw with a VFD offering speeds between 42 and 1000 m/min. I would love one if I had the cash and the space even though they say it can only cut 10mm mild steel plate and it costs £1,500. Realistically that would pay for an awful lot of laser cutting, and Bob's suggestion applied to a smaller machine would probably suit me more as I already have a hacksaw for thicker bar.

Brian G

Edit: Whoops, bandsaw speeds are not RPM

Edited By Brian G on 11/04/2021 20:39:41

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Brian G on 11/04/2021 20:35:23:

Axminster sell a vertical bandsaw with a VFD offering speeds between 42 and 1000 m/min. I would love one if I had the cash and the space even though they say it can only cut 10mm mild steel plate and it costs £1,500. Realistically that would pay for an awful lot of laser cutting, and Bob's suggestion applied to a smaller machine would probably suit me more as I already have a hacksaw for thicker bar.

Brian G

Edit: Whoops, bandsaw speeds are not RPM

Edited By Brian G on 11/04/2021 20:39:41

as I said above

I bought one of these from Axminster Tool a few years ago and it has saved me a lot of effort. It is arranged for a slow speed step on the drive pully with the addition of a variable speed drive. Slow speeds are a must if you are cutting metal and of course you need fast speeds for wood.

Axminster Tools Metal Bandsaw

I find it excellent for cutting blanks for clockwheels and frames in Brass. Steel plate up to 1" thick and large billets of aluminium. I'm not saying thats all it will do just what I have done to date. Most usefull for removing the waste from odd shaped lumps before machining. And obviously it's in it's element for wood.

regards Martin

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Sorry Martin, I completely misunderstood and thought you meant a metal cut-off bandsaw. I'm reminded by your comment about odd shaped lumps of the reason I would like one of the Axminster machines, as 40 years ago part of my job as a foundry technician was cutting up alloy wheels using a bandsaw to extract large enough pieces to machine test samples. There probably isn't another tool that could do this as well as a bandsaw.

Brian G

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Thanks all for your very useful and thought provoking comments. I certainly hadn't thought much about the speed aspect !

Due to space constraints I do tend to favour one machine capable of multiple tasks, provided of course it does all of those tasks reasonably well.

Martins Axminster seems to have this covered well. Strangely its just not available right now and I cant find another machine that has a similar wide range of speed. I wonder why that is ?

There seem to be plenty of robust-looking machines out there for about £500 (for example the Makita) which one could feed through a £50 RS controller, which might then make it suitable for slow but steady metal cutting, albeit with appropriate work-piece holding ? Or am I missing something ?

Gerry

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Might you be better to get a common metal cutting horizontal bandsaw and a handheld electric jigsaw for cutting wood curves etc?

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have a toolmakers Do All bandsaw made in uk under licence by G H Alexander it was possibly made during 1950/60s 2 speed motor varable speed down to below 100 ft per min,capacity ,it will cut steel up to 6 ins thick,it has a sort of "power feed" comprising a cast vee frame and a length of cycle roller chain,the the v lays flat on the table and the chain wraps around the outside of the vee ,the chain ends are attached to a cord which via a pulley system has a large weight on the end of the cord, the weight is enaged via a foot pedal and a screw system adjusts the load applied to the cord. ,cutting heavy pieces of steel would require extreme physical effort so there would be no chance of cutting 5 inch material in a vertical bandsaw. Also cutting any round material in a vertical bandsaw is a no no,DO NOT TRY IT. a horizontal band saw which really is only a modern development of the power hack saw with a big vice is the best way of cutting round material ,the advantage of the horizontal is that it saves time as there is no idle return stroke. An old Rapidor 6 inch is the best machine for cutting blanks,if there is no room in the workshop why not keep it in the garden with a "dog Kennel type shelter on wheels to keep it dry, a friend did this so that he could cut up long lengths of bar. Another way of achieving larger blanks is to get the metal supplier to sell you cut blanks at extra cost,Rounds or other shape cut via flame cutting,water jet, etc are usually cut from flat sheet which usually has poor machining qualities.

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Update – I took a punt on a Femi 728xl. Excellent delivery and a sensible design. But as so often these days, a good product is let down by a few quality issues. For any one else buying one here's what I found.

1) Drive pulley

As it was cold outside I took the liberty of running it in on the dining room floor. Im pleased I did because after a few moments I noticed crumbs of rubber dropping out from the blade box. Dismantling showed that the head of the main hinge bolt was rubbing against the edge of the drive pully. The bolt head was standing proud because someone had stuck a way too course star-washer under it. What made it worse was that there was already a slot in the casting to prevent rotation of the bolt and the round star-washer didn't fit the slot. The remedy was simple. I removed the bolt cleaned up the slot with a die grinder. I then found a thinner star-washer and ground flats onto it so that both the washer and the bolt head would fitted snuggly in the slot.

2) Vice

When I turned the handle it oscillated between tight and loose with each rotation and the moveable jaw swashed in sympathy with it. This suggested a bend in the shaft. Sure enough, when it was all in pieces this was found to be the case. However it wasn't so much the main shaft that was bent, it was the stud on the end with the M6 thread that was out of line with the main shaft. Some careful re-bending and machining sorted this.

What was somewhat surprising was that the vice unit had been carefully shimmed up with shimming washers so that is didn't distort when bolted to the non-flat frame. I wasn't expecting such refinements and all the shims fell onto the table when I unbolted the vice. I didn't take long to re-shim.

3) Angle adjuster

When the machine was all reassembled I noticed that that the blade wasn't quite square with the vice axis. I thought it was just simply a case of adjusting the eccentric stop but that didnt work because the clamp bolt was hard up against the end of its slot. So out came the die-grinder again. With a slightly longer slot I was then able to alight the blade perfectly and fix the position with the eccentric stop. The real zero degree position is now slightly off the scale but I'm happy with that knowing that I can find the real zero every time.

4) Blade guide

The support roller for the back edge of the blade is set in a spindle which sits in a cast 'v' groove. The groove is a little too deep which meant that if the blade is ever pushed this far back, the blade teeth will be running on the corners of the pairs of guide bearings for the side of the blade. This will destroy them quickly. I sorted this by putting thinner much thinner washers under the guide bearings to drop them down a little. Its not a perfect repair but will do for now.

General conclusion…

All this took me the best part of the day but I'm not unhappy about it as I am a bit on the fussy side. I can sleep at night now knowing I have four less things to worry about So overall, would I recommend this product ? Oh yes! It cuts beautifully. Here's my very first trial on a 45mm bar of aluminium. I was able to cut a slice less than 1mm thick and just look at the surface finish !!!

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I'd be very wary of connecting a "£50 RS controller" to any machine-tool unless it is genuinely compatible with the motor – by type as well as voltage and power values.

The sort of 1-3ph inverters you seen often mentioned on this forum slow the speed of a synchronous motor by reducing the frequency, while keeping most of the Watts up. Does that from RS work in the same way for a 1ph motor, or is it simply an amplitude-chopper that slows the motor by reducing the power? If the latter, it would be useless for controlling a machine-tool like a steel-cutting band-saw.

Also, it's not good to run a motor very slowly for long, if only for cooling; and on any machine-tool it is cutting speed, not the motor speed, that has to be lowered with minimum power-loss between motor and work. I can run my Harrison lathe at about 70rpm – but using the gears to keep its 3ph motor happy at around 1000rpm.

'

Don't be misled by work-speed alone. You need consider the feed as well – dictated by the amount of material each tooth can shave off. That a material can be cut at high speeds does not mean it has to be, but many materials can only be cut at very low speeds, on the sort of machines we generally encounter anyway.

A saw made primarily for cutting wood may cut fairly thin aluminium plate with an appropriate blade – not the wood-sawing blade – moderately well, but is far too fast for steel.

A saw made primarily for cutting metals including thick steel will cut wood, with a suitable blade, without problems. It just take longer because the blade speed is low.

In both cases each tooth should be removing its fair share of metal or wood, but at a lower speed just takes a bit longer to do so. Not on piece-rates are you?

.

Conventional vertical band-saws do not have vices so are not suitable for cutting steel bar-stock, although some have geared or belt transmissions allowing low enough speeds for steel. Also, the throat depth obviously limits the maximum length handled.

I used at work, a Startrite band-saw that could cut 2ft X 2 ft squares of 1/4" gauge-plate – hand-fed, very slowly and tediously, at its lowest speed – but it was a machine made for metals-cutting; and I had the range of blades necessary for the work I did on it.

Conventional horizontal band-saws for cutting metals have a vice, and though limited on height and width do not impose length limits. They will also cut wood, though preferably with a wood- cutting blade, coarser and with wider set. A fine blade suitable for solid steel will clog on most woods.

The common dual horizontal / vertical band-saws sold under a number of badge-brands are versatile but tend to suffer from two drawbacks. The tables supplied are small and not well-supported, and the upper blade-guide cannot be lowered closely to the work. These do not help accurate work. Nevertheless they are useful provided you realise their limitations.

(The " pressed-tin" stand supplied with some of those leaves much to be desired, as well. Like many users, I treated mine to a strong trolley on heavy-duty castors.)

SO….

If you need cut metals even if mainly cutting wood, but have room only for one "universal" machine, you are better off with one of those vertical/horizontal machines that can cut the relatively hefty steel sections. Their lowest speeds are optimised for mild-steel, with an appropriate blade (typically 14tpi), but will run fast enough for wood, although a coarser blade is better for that.

[Author]

Posts