Bad Day Or Dreaded 20 MPH

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Journey to my Daughter’s caravan normally takes me hour and half to hour three quarters hours today is my first visit since the introduction of the 20 mph in Wales. Today my journey time was three and half hours I was in long lines of cars which were averaging 25 mph in 40 & 50 zones and around 55 when on national speed limit road ! So was it just a bad day or was it the dreaded 20 ?

H

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

The 20 limit has been badly implemented in many places and some sections of road are to be returned to their former limits at the discretion of the local authorities,or so I understand.
But it’s hard to see how these relatively small areas can have significantly affected traffic speeds on roads with much higher speed limits and,presumably,many miles away.
Yesterday,returning to North Wales from holiday,we passed mile after mile of stationary traffic,on roads with 70mph limits,on its way home after leaving Wales. Surely the problem is the ever increasing amount of traffic,particularly at peak times.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The 20mph limit has rapidly atrophied the brain-cells of drivers

The exercise of Observation, Anticipation, and Courtesy should keep a driver’s mind alert … but these simple skills are no longer meaningful when you’re in a slow procession of sheep.

MichaelG.

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

I’m not convinced that long stretches of 20mph are particularly safe, when a driver spends more time checking the speed, rather than the road ahead.  Another example of decision makers not having a clue about the practicalities of their actions.

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

I think we are going full circle and soon you will be required to have person, probably fully trained, insured and with appropriate PPE to walk in front of your vehicle with a red flag.

 

[Martin Dilly 2Participant @martindilly2]

A lot of the congestion, specially on motorways and dual carriageways, is the total inability of the average British driver to stay in lane 1 when he’s not overtaking. Often lane 1 is totally empty for half a mile or more while 2 and 3 are clogged. Maybe a day on German autobahns should be part of the driving test; anyone in lane 2 when they didn’t need to be would pretty soon have an embossed BMW or Merc logo on their boots.

[Harry Wilkes]

On 3 June 2024 at 22:22 Harry Wilkes Said:

…

Today my journey time was three and half hours I was in long lines of cars which were averaging 25 mph in 40 & 50 zones and around 55 when on national speed limit road ! So was it just a bad day or was it the dreaded 20 ?

H

Neither, I fear. Takes me between 20 and 50 minutes to travel the 9 mile between me and mum.  Although there are 3 or 4 20mph sections en-route they do not make much difference.  What messes me up?

• Sheer weight of traffic – there is no rush hour, rather there are a few parts of the day when the roads are a bit quieter.
• Traffic lights and queuing at junctions
• Road works
• Stop go vehicles such delivery vans, buses and taxis
• Cyclists, agricultural vehicles, and heavy lorries
• Slow drivers who do not pull over to let traffic queuing them behind pass.
• At certain times of year amateurs towing boats and caravans cause delays; poor skills probably due to inexperience.
• Diversions

Of these sheer weight of traffic is undoubtedly the chief evil because it amplifies all the other issues.   Any problem on the road causes queues that are slow to clear.  For example, one silly old duffer pootling along in the middle lane of a motorway can cause a rolling road-block extending miles behind.   As soon as anyone in the queue brakes, a ripple passes down the line, reducing average speed and possibly causing an accident at the tail end.

British driving would be much more fun if 15,000,000 vehicles were taken off the road.

Dave

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

Quite agree with that last bit Dave. Just so long as mine isn’t one of them. Or yours of course.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

There are about 6 million more cars registered since 2003 – didn’t look further but it must have doubled in the last 50 years.

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 3 June 2024 at 22:22 Harry Wilkes Said:

…

Today my journey time was three and half hours I was in long lines of cars which were averaging 25 mph in 40 & 50 zones and around 55 when on national speed limit road ! So was it just a bad day or was it the dreaded 20 ?

H

Neither, I fear. Takes me between 20 and 50 minutes to travel the 9 mile between me and mum.  Although there are 3 or 4 20mph sections en-route they do not make much difference.  What messes me up?

• Sheer weight of traffic – there is no rush hour, rather there are a few parts of the day when the roads are a bit quieter.
• Traffic lights and queuing at junctions
• Road works
• Stop go vehicles such delivery vans, buses and taxis
• Cyclists, agricultural vehicles, and heavy lorries
• Slow drivers who do not pull over to let traffic queuing them behind pass.
• At certain times of year amateurs towing boats and caravans cause delays; poor skills probably due to inexperience.
• Diversions

Of these sheer weight of traffic is undoubtedly the chief evil because it amplifies all the other issues.   Any problem on the road causes queues that are slow to clear.  For example, one silly old duffer pootling along in the middle lane of a motorway can cause a rolling road-block extending miles behind.   As soon as anyone in the queue brakes, a ripple passes down the line, reducing average speed and possibly causing an accident at the tail end.

British driving would be much more fun if 15,000,000 vehicles were taken off the road.

Dave

 

This. My most frequent 20-minute journey is made about 2 minutes longer since 20mph came in. Its impact on journey time has been greatly exaggerated. Incidentally, despite my expectations, I use slightly less fuel driving at 20mph than I did before, presumably because of less stop-start acceleration.

There are places where the 20mph limit seems wrong – minimal risk to pedestrians and major routes, but it makes great sense away from these primary routes.

Driving around urban areas in England at 30mph now seems quite excessive.

eil

[Neil Wyatt]

On Neil Wyatt Said:

[…] My most frequent 20-minute journey is made about 2 minutes longer since 20mph came in. Its impact on journey time has been greatly exaggerated. […]

There is clearly a lot of ‘context’ involved in any such calculation, Neil

Consider the simplest hypothetical case of a 20-minute journey at a constant 30mph … that would be 10 miles

A 10 mile journey at a constant 20mph would take 30-minutes

… It’s all a statistician’s playground.

MichaelG.

 

[Neil Wyatt]

On Neil Wyatt Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 3 June 2024 at 22:22 Harry Wilkes Said:

…

Today my journey time was three and half hours I was in long lines of cars which were averaging 25 mph in 40 & 50 zones and around 55 when on national speed limit road ! So was it just a bad day or was it the dreaded 20 ?

H

Neither, I fear. Takes me between 20 and 50 minutes to travel the 9 mile between me and mum.  Although there are 3 or 4 20mph sections en-route they do not make much difference.  What messes me up?

…

 

This. My most frequent 20-minute journey is made about 2 minutes longer since 20mph came in. Its impact on journey time has been greatly exaggerated. Incidentally, despite my expectations, I use slightly less fuel driving at 20mph than I did before, presumably because of less stop-start acceleration.

There are places where the 20mph limit seems wrong – minimal risk to pedestrians and major routes, but it makes great sense away from these primary routes.

Driving around urban areas in England at 30mph now seems quite excessive.

eil

That’s close to my experience.  Living in Somerset means I drive in busy Bristol, Bath and surrounds.   Traffic, parked vehicles, junctions and pedestrians restrict speed far more than the actual limit. When I had to commute to work through the centre of Bath during peak times, my average speed over a 15 mile journey was only 2.6mph.   The 50mph limit on the London Road was mostly irrelevant because  it was mostly full of cars queueing.

May not be obvious, but restricting the speed limit often increases the capacity of a road.  Makes it safer for cars to safely drive closer together, and reduces the chance of jerky stop-start time-wasting.   So, like Neil, my experience of 20mph limits is they make very little difference: quite a few of them have been applied to roads full of hazards like parked cars, children and blind corners where 30mph would be unwise unless it was unusually quiet.

On an empty race track the maximum safe speed is in the hands of the driver.  He’s free to drive to the limits of his vehicle and judgement.  A busy public road is a completely different problem, more about the needs of the community than keeping individual drivers happy.  On public roads, drivers have to allow for others, and it’s not just common-sense.   Nor is it as simple as local government slapping 20mph limits down thoughtlessly.   Traffic calming measures often just move the problem somewhere else, and then that has to be fixed; it’s a moveable feast.   Within a local area, the goal is an average improvement for the average citizen, not a return to golden age motoring.   20mph limits are a mild force for good.

Too easy to believe the problem is faceless bureaucrats spoiling everything with silly restrictions like 20mph limits.   Actually, the problem is that the most of the UK’s road system is overloaded, which is seriously difficult and expensive to fix.   For example, HS2 started off in 2009 as a good way of taking traffic off Britain’s North South road network, where congestion restricts the economic development of the entire North, making the whole UK poorer.   Unfortunately, HS2 has gone sour:  ‘In July 2023 the Infrastructure Projects Authority annual report gave Phases 1 and 2A project a “red” rating, meaning “Successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable. There are major issues with project definition, schedule, budget, quality and/or benefits delivery, which at this stage do not appear to be manageable or resolvable. The project may need re-scoping and/or its overall viability reassessed.”.

This stuff ain’t simple.  Much worse than pot-holes and speed-limits.

🙁

Dave

 

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

20mph limits are a mild force for good.

Disagree Dave.

There are times and places wher 20mph limits may be desirable. Everywhere all of the time is usually not required or reasonable.

I have just completed 773 miles over 3 days on my motorcycle. At approx. 5pm on Sunday going through Bath trying to find the road out to Wells having come down from Cirencester there was little or no traffic and very few pedestrians – an extended blanket 20 limit here did nothing but cause frustration & it was simply not required. I would have prefered by far for the authorities to have spent the money on “fit for purpose” signage to get me through the area (on part of the Strategic Road Network) efficiently – which it most certainly did not ! And suitably maintained road surfaces, which were universally dreadful pretty much everywhere – more of a threat of injury to many road users than a 30 limit over a 20 limit.

Speed limts over that 773 miles were seemingly applied arbitrarily and at random & for large periods of time it was not easy to discern what the actual limit in force was. It was, however, disappointingly easy to get lost on main roads due to abysmally confusing signposting, signage hidden in undergrowth and damaged or incomplete signage. Speed limits appear to be at the whim of local or regional authorities & applied by dogma, not need.

Should you harbour the belief that I was attempting a mad dash around the country intent on breaking speed limits willy-nilly, nothing could be further from the truth – I was on a Royal Enfield Classic 500, all 29hp of it. It’s happy cruising speed is between 50 & 60 and I try to choose single carriageway roads that only impinge upon larger conurbations where absolutely necessary to use it on – motorways & dual carriageways are not it’s natural element.

And should you think maybe that I don’t appreciate road safety, think again. I have lost 2 close friends to RTAs on roads that have subsequently had the speed limits reduced. In neither case would the current lower limits have had any bearing on the incidents (I do not class them as “accidents” ) that claimed their lives. Lowering speed limits is not a panacea for the current lack of effective roads policing .

Nigel B.

[Ex contributor]

On Ex contributor Said:

20mph limits are a mild force for good.

Disagree Dave.

It’s allowed!!!

…

I have just completed 773 miles over 3 days on my motorcycle. At approx. 5pm on Sunday going through Bath trying to find the road out to Wells having come down from Cirencester there was little or no traffic and very few pedestrians – an extended blanket 20 limit here did nothing but cause frustration & it was simply not required. I would have prefered by far for the authorities to have spent the money on “fit for purpose” signage to get me through the area …

20mph limits aren’t required at 5pm on Sunday for sure! That’s just about the quietest Bath roads get, and not representative.  5pm Monday is much more ‘fun’. A mate lives in Bath.  I’ll ask if he agrees  speed limits and signage should be prioritised to suit Sunday through traffic rather than him during the working week.   The answer may be unprintable!

Personally I find Bristol worse than Bath, but neither of them is traffic friendly.  Best local attraction here though is Swindon’s “Magic Roundabout”, which is most amusing when the traffic is light enough to allow it to operate at full speed, but not quite heavy enough to terrify the locals into slowing down.

All drivers should traverse the Magic Roundabout a couple of times, otherwise you is not a real-man!  The sign is deceptive:  it’s one big roundabout fed by 5 little ones, making it possible to rotate in both directions and do U-turns half way round.  On this beast, you might pray for a 2mph limit and a man with a red flag!

 

I have lost 2 close friends to RTAs on roads that have subsequently had the speed limits reduced. In neither case would the current lower limits have had any bearing on the incidents (I do not class them as “accidents” ) that claimed their lives. Lowering speed limits is not a panacea for the current lack of effective roads policing .

Nigel B.

Reducing the impact speed of a RTA has significant effect on the outcome.   This head-on collision graph shows the difference:

Although serious injury can occur below 10mph, and we’re up to 10% deaths at 20mph, travelling below about 18mph means that almost all injuries will be ‘Slight’.   At 30mph, though the chance of a fatality has risen to 40%, then to 60% at 40mph, and 90% at 50mph.  Not only does speed reduce the time the driver has to react, but the amount of energy in the impact rises disproportionally fast as speed increases.

Extra dangerous for motorcyclists who aren’t protected by an airbag and belted up inside a car designed to absorb energy by folding in a crash.  Instead they are thrown off with a good chance of slamming head-first into a kerb-stone at full speed.    Motorcyclists are 30 times more likely to die on the road than motorists.

None of this is about personal experience – it’s what the statistics say.   Optimists might prefer to know that in 2021 there were only 5.2 fatalities per billion vehicle miles.   Not exactly carnage on British roads, a mere 4.4 deaths per day.

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 3 June 2024 at 22:22 Harry Wilkes Said:

…

Today my journey time was three and half hours I was in long lines of cars which were averaging 25 mph in 40 & 50 zones……….

…………..Of these sheer weight of traffic is undoubtedly the chief evil because it amplifies all the other issues.   Any problem on the road causes queues that are slow to clear.  For example, one silly old duffer pootling along in the middle lane of a motorway can cause a rolling road-block extending miles behind.   As soon as anyone in the queue brakes, a ripple passes down the line, reducing average speed and possibly causing an accident at the tail end.

British driving would be much more fun if 15,000,000 vehicles were taken off the road.

Dave

Since I started driving in the late 1970’s; there are now 4 times the number of vehicles on the roads as there were then. Today, motorways in the night or very early hours are what they used to be like in the daytime, in terms of traffic density.

You only have to observe people’s behaviour in a supermarket to understand the problems on the roads: People dawdle, they stop in the middle of the aisle, blocking it, they move slowly, they don’t pay attention to others etc. 90% of those people then go out to their cars and drive on the roads in the same way………………Tells you all you need to know.

As far as cars in lanes 2 and 3 on the motorway are concerned, I can no longer be bothered to wait behind or overtake them. I just drift past them in lane 1 or 2.

20mph is ridiculously slow though, and I drive them looking mostly at my speedometer instead of the road ahead and around me. That is not safe. 20mph is only being done because people can’t cross the road safely, or are using their phones while driving, and/or not paying attention. Persecute those people not all drivers.

And as someone said, speed limits change so often on different stretches of the same road, between 30, 40, 50, and 60, that I quite frequently lose track of what the limit is where I am. So when I see a speed camera, I have to assume a lower limit. Why can’t they write the camera’s speed limit on the back of the housing – just stick a standard round speed limit sign on there ?

They claim that speed cameras are there to improve safety, but that is a lie because if they actually wanted to improve safety and actually wanted cars to keep to that speed, they would write the limit on the back of the camera housing so everyone could comply.

This is also presumably why people in Wales now drive at about 25mph, just in case they are in a 20 limit.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

Isn’t it time manufactures fitted a gadget which limits the speed of a vehicle, by receiving a signal from one of those road side signs, which transmits road accidents and diversion routes. Maybe SATNAV could fit an audio device. Rather than moan about the speed limits why not get up 10 or 20 minutes earlier. In former time workers lived a bike ride or motor bike ride from their work place, now days 50 or 100miles commute in a car appears to be normal.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Good idea, but the speed limits change too often for that to work, and you cannot trust the speed limits shown on SatNavs 100%.

A cheap way to help would be to put dots of reflective white thermoplastic in the road every few miles to remind drivers: 3 dots across the lane for 30mph, 4 dots for 40 mph, 5 for 50 and none for ‘national speed limit applies’. Much cheaper than a road-sign on a pole.

People often say get up earlier or allow more time for your journey, but the problem with ever lower speed limits is that traffic gets clogged up and driver’s attention wavers because they are barely moving. Dawdling along at 20 mph in a long line of cars is stultifying !

And in 5 years, will Wales say that they are going to reduce the speed limit to 10 mph because that will save even more lives ?

 

[John Doe 2]

On John Doe 2 Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 3 June 2024 at 22:22 Harry Wilkes Said:

…

 

…

…
20mph is ridiculously slow though, and I drive them looking mostly at my speedometer instead of the road ahead and around me. That is not safe. 20mph is only being done because people can’t cross the road safely, or are using their phones while driving, and/or not paying attention. Persecute those people not all drivers.

And as someone said, speed limits change so often on different stretches of the same road, between 30, 40, 50, and 60, that I quite frequently lose track of what the limit is where I am. So when I see a speed camera, I have to assume a lower limit. Why can’t they write the camera’s speed limit on the back of the housing – just stick a standard round speed limit sign on there ?

…

Slightly worrying John, are you really not taking in speed limit signs as you drive?  Does that mean you don’t see any of the other information, warning and command signage that drivers are supposed to understand as per the Highway Code?   Plenty of other signs alter my attitude to speed because they suggest trouble ahead:

And there are dozens of other clues that alter my approach: dusk; parked cars, school opening and closing times; harvest time; wet; ice; snow; fog; leaves; road-works; pot-holes; other drivers flashing me; erratic drivers; distant sirens;  driving into the sun at dawn or sunset; pedestrians or workmen waiting to cross; the possibility that signs are hidden by foliage, and many other distractions.

Nor do I find it necessary to continuously monitor the speedo to ensure I’m on the limit: that would be dangerous!  Instead I adjust speed at the sign using the speedo, get a feel for roughly how fast that is by watching the road, and then periodically check I’m about right by glancing at the speedo.   The exception is driving a strange car, or when deaf due to ear-wax.   Engine noise is an important clue to speed, and quiet fast cars are downright deceptive.

Most speed cameras shouldn’t be a surprise.  They’re painted bright yellow, preceded by warning signs, listed on the internet, and marked on road-maps.  An up-to-date satnav will issue warnings as you approach them.   This is in addition to the signs setting the speed limit.  GATSOs are located near accident black-spots, not sited sneakily to unreasonably catch the unwary.  Setting one off means the driver has been breaking the speed limit for some time, either not paying attention, or deliberately.  Whilst the offending driver might be confident of his judgement, the rest of us aren’t so sure!  Perhaps he’s hurrying home from the pub with a full bladder!

We live in an imperfect world.  When I did lots of motorway driving a common problem was signs setting adaptive speed-limits, intended to slow traffic well in advance of trouble ahead.  Quite often these signs would set a 50mph limit for no apparent reason on a clear road, almost as if someone had forgotten to cancel them after an earlier incident.   Very bad because it teaches drivers to ignore them.  That gets exciting when everyone reaches a real accident at full-speed, all doing an emergency stop avoid smacking into a rapidly growing queue.

Bottom line is that driving on public roads is a disciplined privilege, not an unfettered personal freedom.  By convention society orders that the whole country will drive one side of the road.  Clearly a gross infringement of our liberties, but I suggest the rule is far more sensible than allowing chaos.   As soon as a road is shared with other people, their needs become important: it’s not there to satisfy individual priorities.

Dave

 

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

I think that Dave’s comments regarding the causes of long journey times have been the same for the last 100 years. Over this period roads have been continually improved but the result is that the easier a journey is to make the more people are attracted to make it. In other words the only traffic density regulator is when the journey time dissuades one from making the journey. Unfortunately our lifestyles are now more often set by our need for personal mobility whether it be for the commute to work or simply getting the groceries. Electric cars are probably better suited to slow or stop/start traffic condition and if they are fitted with distance limiting devices one only has to steer the vehicle to follow the one in front. Sounds rather like a train with individual passenger compartments. Haven’t we been here before.

CS

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Maybe, if all drivers obeyed the 2 second rule, ON DRY ROADS, and looked well ahead, there would be fewer accidents. (Longer in the wet)

If yo watch when folk react to a hazard, it is obvious, in many cases that they are not looking far enough ahead.  Oftenn they have to brake hard, when just lofting off the throttle would have sufficed.

The older of us will have learned to ride a bike, The old ones with rod brakes and Westwood rims soon taught us that, in rain, the water was centrifuged onto the rim where the brake blocks were going to operate, resulting in almost no braking effect.  That trained us to look well ahead!

Similarly, when we learned to drive, cars had drum brakes, of questionable efficiency, and little resistance to brake fade. (And we could drive on nearly bald tyres!)  Now we have better tyres, and disc brakes with anti lock systems, so folk think that they can drive at speed, much closer to the vehicle in front, with impugnity.

The fallacy of that is illustrated daily.  Six cars in lane 3 of M6 occupying less than five car lengths, with No.3, literally on the roof on No.2!

Some roads may be poor, but not as poor as some of the users!

Howard

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I rather doubt that you are using the word ‘literally’ literally, Howard !

… I do, however  agree that “ only a fool beaks the two-second rule”

It was drummed-into me by a Police driver on my ROSPA course, and has stood me in very good stead.

MichaelG.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I understand the EU has mandated that cars made – and sold? – in Europe from, I think, 2027 will have to have speed-limiters but how that will work, and to what limits they would be set, is anyone’s guess. Note that it is a limiter, not a cruise-control. By then major manufacturers will be moving to making all-electric cars, if they have not already done so, too; and some of these appear to be crammed with as much superfluous, and worrying, external control as possible.

The limiters might be tied to sat-nav systems though of course those are not infallible. The driver must still be aware of any temporary speed-limits the “sat-nag” will not know.

This applies to the UK too, since cars are made to suit as wide a market as possible, although of course we already have the major difference of driving side.

I do though wonder why some cars are still made to be capable of cruising at >100mph. Are there any countries where this is still both feasible and legal?

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I agree with the 20 limit in certain places, but it has been overdone generally.

On a slightly different note, Exeter council has had a traffic scheme which blocked a number of roads to make the city more environmentally friendly. Actually, it made travelling through the city to get anywhere about double the distance originally travelled. Public opinion has been so adverse that most of the costly improvements are to be abolished, maybe votes do count.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Made the reverse of the journey today without any problems whoever was at the front kept up a good speed. Also should add spent the 4 days I was there out and about and didn’t find the 20mph to be to much of a problem

H

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

I understand the EU has mandated that cars made – and sold? – in Europe from, I think, 2027 will have to have speed-limiters but how that will work, and to what limits they would be set, is anyone’s guess. Note that it is a limiter, not a cruise-control. By then major manufacturers will be moving to making all-electric cars, if they have not already done so, too; and some of these appear to be crammed with as much superfluous, and worrying, external control as possible.

The limiters might be tied to sat-nav systems though of course those are not infallible. The driver must still be aware of any temporary speed-limits the “sat-nag” will not know.

This applies to the UK too, since cars are made to suit as wide a market as possible, although of course we already have the major difference of driving side.

I do though wonder why some cars are still made to be capable of cruising at >100mph. Are there any countries where this is still both feasible and legal?

Nigel is broadly right, except the operative date was 2022, not 2027. At this stage the system is ON by default, but the driver can turn it OFF.    What happens when the limit is exceeded depends on the implementation: buzzer, vibrating the accelerator pedal, or reducing engine power.   I think we can expect these systems to become more intrusive, not giving the driver the option to turn the system off, and having the system in charge of the throttle when the limit is exceeded.

The technology needed to do this is already available.   For a few pounds a GPS system tells the car exactly where it is, and speed signs can be recognised with a camera, or broadcast wirelessly.  Many options.   The cars I’m used to all featured mechanical linkages that are difficult to integrate with external control, but new vehicles are much more likely to be ‘fly-by-wire’.   That is, pressing the accelerator doesn’t pull a wire that opens a butterfly valve on top of a carburettor.   Instead, pressing the accelerator pedal puts a ‘go faster’ or ‘go slower’ instruction on a databus connected to the engine management unit.   The EMU, being a computer, can easily re-interpret those signals, and simply ignore any commands issued by the driver that would cause the car to exceed the limit.   Also not difficult to imagine a pursuing police car fitted with a way of telling a chased EMU to slow down and stop whatever it’s naughty driver wants.

Not entirely comfortable with it myself, but it would put an end to yobbo car thieves joyriding stolen cars to destruction and maiming passers-by.

I hope no-one thinks leaving the EU will make any difference.  Certainly not impossible to have UK-only cars that ignore requirements like this, but the practicalities make that tricky in various ways. If a UK car maker wishes to sell cars in Europe, he has to fit the equipment.  If a UK owner wishes to drive his car in Europe, the car will have to be fitted with the equipment.  In both cases the cheap easy answer is to just fit the equipment.   Special cases cost time and money!

Nigel also says of 2027 ‘By then major manufacturers will be moving to making all-electric cars, if they have not already done so…’  This again is a change knocking on the door.  In China, great strides have been made towards the volume production of cheap electric cars – cheaper than cheap IC cars  This is a game changer, and they become available in Western markets next year…

We live in interesting times!   Stop the world, I want to get off.

Dave

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