BA sizes

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by bernard towers on 11/05/2021 22:07:53:

4ba nut spinner. Come on lads you’ve missed a trick, make it from a socket head with a 1/4 socket.

Like wot John Haine said on the previous page

MichaelG.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

I'm looking out for a 1/4 screwdriver bit handle at a reasonable price since it's been shown that 4BA is almost exactly 1/4" AF.

I tried looking for 1/4" Nut spinners – but I think it would be easier to buy Hen's Teeth

With best wishes and thanks again.

MC

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi MC, some at CPC but the postage for a single item may put you off.

Regards Nick.

P.S. you get free delivery for orders for £17.50 or more, currently, excluding VAT

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 12/05/2021 07:16:21

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Dr. MC Black on 12/05/2021 00:30:33:

I'm looking out for a 1/4 screwdriver bit handle at a reasonable price since it's been shown that 4BA is almost exactly 1/4" AF.

[…]

.

Yes, that’s what I had in mind when I suggested it

Google ‘image’ or ‘shopping’  search for

1/4" multi bit screwdriver handle

gives many options, and they are also commonly available from ‘bargain stores’ and market traders.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/05/2021 07:29:55

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Dr. MC Black on 11/05/2021 13:44:06:

Very many thanks to everybody for their comments

I will manage with a 1/4" Screwdriver Bit handle for the time being.

The cost of postage often makes buying things from Ebay uneconomic – apart from NOT knowing if any descriptions are fair and accurate.

I recently bought a book from an overseas bookseller – although he described it as "Acceptable" many of the pages had been scribbled on and I told him that a fair description would be "Poor". The stress of doing this has convinced me to be VERY cautious about buying anything by Mail Order from anywhere, especially from overseas.

That seems a bit overly cautious perhaps. Millions of people worldwide buy millions of things online every day with relatively few problems. If you buy from one of the reputable UK suppliers that advertise on this site or in ME magazine etc, you should be pretty safe. Most have eBay shops too. And if you have an unsatisfactory purchase eBay will organise a refund etc, as will Paypal. Pretty much no risk these days.

Postage costs within UK surely are not that much are they? I get most of my ME supplies from the UK and I live in Australia. Postage costs are not prohibitive. And if you are prepared to take a punt on some of the cheap as chips stuff on Aliexpress etc, postage from our highly esteemed trading partners in the Orient is mostly free.

Just seems like it should not be that hard to get a 1/4" nut driver, or a full set of BA drivers for that matter.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you do get a 1/4" screwdriver handle don't forget to remove the magnet otherwise nuts will get pulled in and unlikely to engage on short studs.

I usually find postage is less than petrol and parking costs so cheaper to stay home than go and get the item.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Good point, Jason … although some of the drivers have removable spring clips instead of magnets.

MichaelG.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 12/05/2021 07:05:15:

Hi MC, some at CPC but the postage for a single item may put you off.

Regards Nick.

P.S. you get free delivery for orders for £17.50 or more, currently, excluding VAT

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 12/05/2021 07:16:21

Thank you for taking the time to write.

I tried to find the cost of delivery for orders under £17.50 but failed!

I was thinking of a "screwdriver shape" nut spinner. I do not think that the extra torque provided by a T-shaped handle would be needed for 4BA nuts.

With best wishes and thanks again.

MC

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi MC, no problem. Delivery charges for under £17.50 is £4.99 ex- VAT which is found in their T&C's 6. Orders paragraph.

Regards Nick.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by Hopper on 12/05/2021 07:51:30:

Posted by Dr. MC Black on 11/05/2021 13:44:06:

The stress of doing this has convinced me to be VERY cautious about buying anything by Mail Order from anywhere, especially from overseas.

That seems a bit overly cautious perhaps. Millions of people worldwide buy millions of things online every day with relatively few problems. If you buy from one of the reputable UK suppliers that advertise on this site or in ME magazine etc, you should be pretty safe. Most have eBay shops too. And if you have an unsatisfactory purchase eBay will organise a refund etc, as will Paypal. Pretty much no risk these days.

Postage costs within UK surely are not that much are they? I get most of my ME supplies from the UK and I live in Australia. Postage costs are not prohibitive. And if you are prepared to take a punt on some of the cheap as chips stuff on Aliexpress etc, postage from our highly esteemed trading partners in the Orient is mostly free.

Just seems like it should not be that hard to get a 1/4" nut driver, or a full set of BA drivers for that matter.

I was taught to be cautious at University !

Postage costs within the UK are NOT unreasonable but the "P+P" charges made by some sellers ARE, in my view, way too high.

I don't think it's fair to charge £5.00 postage for something that will fit in a "Large Letter" and could be sent for less than a pound.

And I don't want something that I've bought for a pound or two to be delivered by somebody in a White Van.

I have bought things from the far east in the past but only very cheap items. Sometimes, I've abandoned the project by the time the item has arrived.

I am currently thinking of buying some electric candles for another (theatrical) project but there's insufficient information as to whether it will prove suitable so, even though the postage will be less than petrol, I'm thinking of visiting the seller's premises to actually try the various candles in the chamberstick. Since I've NOT used my car for 14 months, it will do it good to have a run of 100 miles. Since I have a Blue Badge, I am rarely required to pay to park.

I appreciate that many readers will disagree with my views but please do NOT attempt to persuade me to change them.

I hope that you and your families are, and will remain, safe and well.

MC

 

 

Edited By Dr. MC Black on 12/05/2021 09:53:04

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by JasonB on 12/05/2021 07:57:24:

If you do get a 1/4" screwdriver handle don't forget to remove the magnet otherwise nuts will get pulled in and unlikely to engage on short studs.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

That sounds like the voice of experience!

Any suggestions as to how to remove the magnet, please?

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 12/05/2021 09:39:45:

Hi MC, no problem. Delivery charges for under £17.50 is £4.99 ex- VAT which is found in their T&C's 6. Orders paragraph.

Regards Nick.

Very many thanks for your prompt, helpful and courteous response.

In my view, Companies should make the postage charge for small orders visible next to where it advertises "Free delivery for orders over…"

This exemplifies what I wrote about something fitting in a "Large Letter" for less than a pound!

With best wishes and thanks again.

MC

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I have resorted to Tubal Cain's Model Engineers' Handbook (3rd Edition).

Going through the table of BA hexagon sizes (page 4.13), it's clear that 4BA is about the only size at 0.498" that is close to a regular size in both inches and millimetres.

However the table's notes state two points:

1) BA is a metric range but British Standards called for it to be specified in inch-equivalents.

2) The diminishing availability of hexagon bar in non-integer sizes means many of the nuts are nearest-metric sizes.

It does not say if this is also true of the bolt-heads, but to avoid having to use two different tool ranges for the same joint, we may as well use standard M-series fastenings, either the Fine or the common Coarse range. (Them Coarse threads – right common they are… Sorry! )

It also adds that commercial 0BA nuts are sometimes made to 1/4" BSW / F size – but whether this still applies some 18 years after the book's publication is another matter. 0BA is actually very close to standard M6 Coarse, but they are not interchangeable.

There is or was a range of metric fastenings dimensions suited to fine model-engineering, for better scale fidelity, produced in 1981. Though it could not adopted as a trade standard it was allowable under British Standards auspices, by Guidance Note PD6507-1982. Does anyone know what happened to this? (For example, does the ISO Metric Fine range provide acceptable alternatives?)

'

It would seem many model-engineers now use "ordinary" (Coarse range) ISO fastenings anyway. The larger the model scale, the less the scaling effect.

As an example, though intending to use all-BS fasteners from 1/4" upwards on my 4"-scale steam-wagon, an M6 hexagon (10mm / 0.394" A/F0 looks more reasonable on the metric HRS chassis members with their over-scale thicknesses, than that of 1/4" BSF. UNF (7/16" AF for 14" ) would approach the effect, and UNF bolt heads tend not to be marred by the rough forging and clumsy embossing typical of M-series bolt-heads.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 12/05/2021 12:17:46:

I have resorted to Tubal Cain's Model Engineers' Handbook (3rd Edition).

Going through the table of BA hexagon sizes (page 4.13), it's clear that 4BA is about the only size at 0.498" that is close to a regular size in both inches and millimetres.

Many other subscribers have indicated that 4BA is 1/4 inch AF.

I'm sorry to appear dense but exactly which dimension of an 4BA nut is 0.498", please?

MC

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Dr. MC Black on 12/05/2021 12:28:27:

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 12/05/2021 12:17:46:

[…]

I'm sorry to appear dense but exactly which dimension of an 4BA nut is 0.498", please?

.

Don’t worry, MC … I’m sure Nigel will acknowledge the typo.

MichaelG.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

What typo?

The dimension is A/F (Across Flats).

It's rare you need know the full diameter of a hexagonal fixing unless making them from round bar.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

This may (or may not) help:-

John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 12/05/2021 15:38:51:

What typo?

The dimension is A/F (Across Flats).

.

The typo that you made when transcribing 0.248

.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Nigel, there is no difference in the hex sizes between metric coarse and metric fine.

Metric coarse fixings are available from a number of sources with smaller A/F and taller nuts to better represent period fixings and are used by those of us who like to work in metric and care about how out models look. These are typically fully machined heads and nuts with single chamfer and no strength spec formed on the bolt heads.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 12/05/2021 12:17:46:

[…]

Guidance Note PD6507-1982. Does anyone know what happened to this?

[…]

.

Nothing much … It is still ‘current’ and available to buy: **LINK**

https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail?pid=000000000000099975

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 12/05/2021 15:38:51:

What typo?

.

Bumping this, in the hope of attracting Nigel’s attention

… it would be good to tidy-up the thread.

MichaelG.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The BA thread is basically Metric. (Originally Swiss, I believe )

Starts at 6 mm x 1 mm pitch (But NOT M6 because of the different thread form, 47.5 degrees as opposed to 60 degrees for Metric threads ) with thread pitch decreasing by a factor of 0.9, as shown in the tables above.

The spanner size shown in the tables above decreases by a factor of approximately 0.88, varies very slightly from size to size..

Cromwell Tools offer open end BA spanners, so maybe they offer nut spinners also?

If you can find a capscrew which fits your 4BA nuts, you could always make your own by fixing it into a screwdriver handle.

Maybe more readily and cheaply available

Howard.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 13/05/2021 22:42:13:

Cromwell Tools offer open end BA spanners, so maybe they offer nut spinners also?

They do, but they're a bit expensive.

Links to https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/hand-tools/nut-spinners/7-pce-ba-nut-spinner-set/p/KEN5569520K

Rob

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 13/05/2021 23:45:04:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 13/05/2021 22:42:13:

Cromwell Tools offer open end BA spanners, so maybe they offer nut spinners also?

They do, but they're a bit expensive.

Links to https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/hand-tools/nut-spinners/7-pce-ba-nut-spinner-set/p/KEN5569520K

Rob

Zoro sell the same nut spinners at around £2.50 each – see: **LINK**

But they are out of stock on the 4BA size – which is what started me on this topic.

I live in hope that somebody will be offering a 4BA nut spinner at a comparable on Ebay. In the meantime, I can use a 1/4" screwdriver bit handle having started the nut on the thread so the magnet doesn't take control!

Very many thanks for all comments

MC

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