BA, ME, Metric Coarse or Imperial : which taps and dies to buy ?

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

To the chap having trouble threading the brass tube, it may be the brass which is the problem. Some brass is very easy to machine, I think it is sold as engraving quality. Some is very ductile and will grab drills and suchlike, I think that it's called cartridge brass. That is the sort that is likely to be used for tube which will be bent, but it would be much harder to thread.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

John : Well, if I can't even thread hardened brass then how am I going to be with steel ?

Edited By Brian John on 07/11/2014 03:09:42

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Maybe I should have been more specific.

I am not saying that I never use taper taps, but as I generally buy my taps and dies "as required" I generally don't bother with a taper tap, especially if it's a fine thread

Most of my threads are in al.alloy and are frequently blind, with a fine pitch. On most of the taper taps that I have the tapered bit occupies 30% + of the working length of the tap, this is frequently greater than the depth of thread. So, for me, the taper tap is of dubious value.

My understanding of tap production is that the thread form is produced first, then the taper is applied in various lengths to create taper, inter and plug taps. This is obviously different when Serial sets are being produced, where taper, inter and plug taps cut a progressively larger thread. So it's not surprising that a normal (non serial) taper tap will cut a thread, especially a through thread in thin materials, that is quite functional.

Having said all this I must say that the serial taps supplied by ArcEuro and Ausee are excellent. I just wish that they were available in a wider range of pitches.

cheers

Bill

[Anonymous]

For blind holes I tend to use spiral flute taps. Although intended for machine tapping they work just as well by hand.

Andrew

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Brian, you miss my point. Cartridge brass is not hard, it's soft and gummy and tools catch in it. Hard brass cuts beautifully though for drilling you ideally need to slightly take the top rake off the tool and the same for turning. A pipe very likely will need to be bent so more likely to be made of something ductile. Why do you want to thread it anyway? Might it be best to solder on a fitting?

[VicParticipant @vic]

I bought some serial taps but can't say I was very impressed. Is there a knack to using them that I'm missing? I use recommended tapping drill sizes and temaxol cutting compound.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

What brand of serial taps were they and where did you buy them from ? I was going to buy the ones from Arc Euro Trade.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Update : I have had another go.

1. Tried the paper : ''It did no good, I didn't think it would'' It actually made it slip more.

2. Drop of oil on the die : I think it may have helped slightly.

3. Opened the die up with the centre screw : yes, this did help.

4. Took off the aluminium soft jaws : EUREKA ! The soft aluminium jaws were not gripping enough so now I am just putting it directly in the steel jaws of the vice. I thought the steel jaws might squash the brass tube but they did not ; the tube is not turning at all now. The steel jaws do have a V notch for holding tube and rod in the vertical position.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I need to buy a set of HSS metric taps and dies (2mm, 3mm, 4mm, 5mm and 6mm). I want to build the engines made by this German company and I think they require fine scale metric :

**LINK**

I am looking at the beam engine and the two stirling engines as my first lathe projects.

There is a good metric set from Chronos (bottom of the page : 75 piece by Draper) which has both fine and coarse scale but it is only in carbon steel. My first experience with carbon steel dies was not good so I want to stick with HSS.

**LINK**

Does anybody know of a set that fits my requirements (2mm to 6mm HSS taps and dies) with at least two taps for each size but three would be better ?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

You could try here: **LINK**

I bought just taper and bottom taps for the ocassional newbie stuff I'm doing (mostly mending stuff).

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't think you will find a set with a mix of fine and coarse in those sizes.

Better to buy sets of 3 taps in each size you need and a die.

The Vokel ones that Rotagrip sell are quite nice in the smaller sizes (fordeight on e-bay) The Dormer E-500 series sets of 3 taps are good and not too expensive when the likes of MSC have them on special offer.

For the reamers they list teh ones from ARC would be fine.

J

 

PS they also list M8 fine as being needed which you have not mentioned

PPS I would wait until you have the drawings to hand, its quite possible the M5x0.5 is for a gland and you could substitute your 3/16×40 me taps with a 0.3mm adjustment to sizes.

Edited By JasonB on 27/07/2015 13:14:07

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

The set from Chronos has that mix of fine and coarse metric but only in carbon steel. I would have thought if somebody has made it in carbon steel then the same set would also be made in HSS ?

I have found it too expensive just buying taps and dies as needed when you need three or four sizes at once. When you require this many at once then it is better to start looking at complete sets because it is far more economical.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Really depends on the quality of the taps and dies in the set, you could spend £50 on a set and you could spend £500+ on a set containing similar sizes. At just over £1 per item in that Draper set I would be questioning the quality.

There is nothing wrong with good quality carbon steel taps & dies, for our use they are just as good as HSS. but there are also poor quality carbon ones about as well

Edited By JasonB on 27/07/2015 13:12:08

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I agree but how do you know until you buy them that they are poor quality ? I think that the only way to avoid the problem of poor quality carbon steel is to buy HSS !

I was tempted to buy that set from Chronos anyway but postage to Australia is 50 pounds so I may give it a miss for now.

Has anybody bought this set in carbon steel from Tracey Tools :

http://www.tracytools.com/taps-and-dies/taps-dies-wooden-box/metric-fine

 

Edited By Brian John on 27/07/2015 13:58:14

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I have lots of taps and dies but kept finding that I needed metric at times so bought odd quality ones as needed. Became a bit fed up with this so bought a seft of screwfix. This one

**LINK**

It wont be super precision. That would cost a great deal of money. The set has changed since I bought mine. They were split dies with a screw in each one for adjustment that doesn't work out too well. I believe this was favoured in Japan. It was also in a wooden box. It's pretty good value. Depending on what you want to make there may be a need to add a few smaller sizes. I had one problem with the set I bought. One of the small dies was incorrectly marked – it was smaller than the indicated size. I'd guess this is rare. I could have spotted that by seeing if the tapping drill looked to be correct for it. Depending on standards it may not actually go in.

The carbon steel sets can be very mixed. I've had no luck at all with the cheap ones but only tried UN types which I hardly ever use anyway. The set I bought was useless even though it was dearer than some.

For BA and ME I feel it's better to buy used especially ME. Some times Triangle brand sets and others in a wooden box crop up on ebay. They are ok and marked stocks and dies for some reason or the other. They tend to be mixed 40 tpi with brass tpi in in larger sizes.

I would be inclined to forget metric fine as the normal pitch is available in a large range of sizes right down to very small. It might be of use at very small sizes say circa 1 to 1.5mm.

One other aspect – is there a need for the imperial threads at all? Mostly no as they can be replaced with a metric equivalent . If something calls for say 1/4 BSF there will be no problems replacing it with M6. If something calls for 10 BA it could be replaced with M1.6, even the pitch is near identical. This means that both imperial designs with slight size changes in places can be made using the same taps and dies as metric designs. This is the full range of metric coarse

**LINK**

Problems come when something has to be made to fit something that uses BS or UN threads where it's to be fixed to the part. Also 40tpi was a favourite for adjustments as it's the same as a mic spindle. That isn't well covered by metric threads as a 0.5mm pitch would be needed for the same sort of use if it was a micrometer spindle for instance. 40tpi 1/2 dia isn't a problem. 0.5mm pitch isn't so easy but there are taps about in several sizes.

No idea what the price is now but RSComponets do a very good left hand metric tap set at a very reasonable price. Pity that the dies are rather expensive. When I bought mine the cost of the set was little different to what some were charging for one tap, less in some cases. Dies – just buy as needed but split ones will work out at £20 each at the good cheap end.

John

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

This would be a reasonable 2-6mm coarse set then buy the odd fine pitches to go with it as the sets of fine tend to go a bit too large for the smal engines you are likely to make

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Who has metric fine taps and dies to be sold separately ?

Has anybody tried these from Tracey Tools either in carbon steel or HSS ?

**LINK**

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

recommend Tracey Tools – order before lunch one day and order arrives by post next day – they aren’t the cheapest tho I have paid more elsewhere but I’ve found quality excellent (tho I generally buy HSS having in past bought junk Carbon steel and regreted it) – also find their milling excellent (slot + endmills) – full range always seems to be in stock.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Brian same company I linked to above has separates in fine and extrafine which is what the M8 x 0.75 would be classed as, Be carful with some of those fine sets as they have M8x 1.0 which is not what Bengs list as being needed

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The tap and die co Jason linked to sell decent kit and the finer taps at the small end in that set look like they come as plug and taper which can be very handy and split dies as well. These can be adjusted a touch but the die holders usually have to be modified. One let down on the screwfix kit is the tap and die holders but they are usable. Jason is correct on sizes used on many things not just steam engines but my feeling were that I just wanted to be able use larger sizes if needed without having to go out and buy which would cost more in the long run.

I would say that Tracey Tools are pretty cheap even for the industrial items that they sell, sometimes have to ask for those. They sold me the 2 metric left hand spit HSS dies I needed to go with my taps. £20 each. It's possible to pay rather a lot more if some one looks in the wrong place.

RScomponents also have a number of tap and die sets even high end brands if some one wants to pay that sort of money out.

Actually there is nothing wrong with good quality carbon steel taps and dies providing they aren't used heavily and very often and on more difficult materials such as stainless. Finding a decent set is tricky though.

Personally if I was starting again I would buy a boxed set. It's nice to pick up the box and choose which one is wanted rather than tipping the lot out of a bag etc. At times it has taken me longer to find the tap or die than actually make use of it.

If some one really is on a budget I would suggest Arceuro. They too have sets

**LINK**

I have bought numerous tools of them over rather a long time now and so far I have been pleased with the items. The other budget seller I have used is Harry??? on ebay. The ??? is some number. I got fed up of needing specific reamers at times. His sets for what they cost seem pretty good to me. Again in a box and handy that way for the same reason.

John

–

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

John, you just need to get yourself sorted out Me on teh left with BA and BSP on the right, I have another for metric

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

My workshop is a wall in the house Jason so an orderly arrangement of bits and pieces is rather difficult. My lathe sits on a very old kitchen unit. I do have a few of the same draws as you show and less of the deeper ones but they soon fill up. I recently added a 15 draw one which might help.

Workshop? well

More shelves higher up and a handy step ladder near by. This images title is a part tidy up. Finished long ago and I am currently in the middle of another one.

John

–

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

John : that mini metric die set from Arc Euro is not metric fine though. The M2 tap is listed as M2 X 0.4 on ebay which is coarse scale. Isn't metric fine M2 X 0.2 ? I almost bought that set tonight before I realised.

Arc Euro do have nice serial taps in metric fine. I think that is the way to go.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/Taps/Serial-Taps—Metric-BSW-BSF

Edited By Brian John on 27/07/2015 17:44:54

Edited By Brian John on 27/07/2015 17:49:48

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Brian, looking at the Bengs link you need M2x0.4 and M3x0.5 which are metric coarse, these are likely to be for fixings. They don't give the pitch for these so general rule of thumb is metric coarse is being refered to.

M5x0.5 metric fine and M8x0.75 extrafine which will be for glands, pipe connections etc

M2x0.25 is metic fine

Edited By JasonB on 27/07/2015 17:51:56

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Okay, thanks for that Jason. I already have these M3, M4 and M5 serial taps in metric coarse. The beam engine requires M4 so do they mean fine or coarse and I suppose ''cutting irons'' means dies ?

Very odd : they do not have metric fine dies !

Edited By Brian John on 27/07/2015 17:58:40

Edited By Brian John on 27/07/2015 18:01:34

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