‘average model engineer’

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

A couple of points,

1 In the good old, bad old days, when men were men etc etc, there were very few skilled machinists, relative to the number of machines. The skilled men would be setting up manual machines for semi skilled operators to use. Where I did my apprenticeship (Saunders Roe) there were something like a dozen capstans which were all set up by one man. The semi skilled operators had to be able to read a set of instructions and twiddle a handle which moved something until it hit a stop, when the handle would be twiddled backwards, and so on. From memory, in the machine shop there would have been something like 50 or 60 people, of whom about 10 or 15 who were considered to be "Skilled", or Tradesmen. Similarly there was a bank of mills which would be set up by a skilled man, and operated by a semi skilled person.

The last place that I worked had an all CNC Machine Shop, including Inspection. There were about 30 to 35 people working there. Of those something like 20 or 25 were considered to be able to prepare CNC programs, obviously some were senior to others and were capable of undertaking breathtakingly complex tasks. None of them were "button pushers" but skilled people. We were a jobbing shop that produced small batches, sometimes batches of 1!! seldom more than 25 or 30.

So from this, in my experience I think its fair to say that the type of skill required has changed from a person who had an intimate knowledge of a manual machine to someone who has an intimate knowledge of a CNC machine, It's very likely that the manual machinist of a bygone era would be gobsmacked by what a modern CNC machine is capable of, and that a modern CNC machinist would be gobsmacked by what a skilled person on a manual machine is capable of. Horses for courses.

I think that it's true to say that for every technical innovation there is a related loss of skill somewhere.

For instance look at draughting. Again, where I did my apprenticeship, there were about 250 draughtsmen, and a handful of Engineers (thats degree qualified Engineers….). To be a draughtsman you had to first be a tradesman, and understand how things were made. The draughtsmans job was to turn the concepts of the Engineer into something that could be made. The last place that I worked had a handful of what I would call draughtsmen, maybe 5 or 6 when I retired. However there were maybe 50 or 60 people who prepared drawings and models for manufacture, invariably they had a degree, their job title was "Engineer" but the function they endeavoured to perform was that of a Draughtsman. The fact that they did their work on a CAD station is relevant, there's a lot of technology available in CAD stations. The technology in many ways is amazing, but it is still a requirement that the operator must understand how a thing is to be made. Some of them (most of them) didn't know the difference between a mill and a lathe and had no idea how things were made. I spent a large part of my time conducting "Design for Manufacture" exercises and holding the hands, (in a technical sense!) of these new Draughtsmen.

Of course the modern Manager would say that "…stuff is still being made, isn't it?" which is true, but what happens when the last Old Ph**t retires?

Apparently its called progress…..

cheers

Bill

Edited By Bill Pudney on 21/08/2014 06:35:10

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Bill,

Showing your age if you were an apprentice at Saunders Roe as it became BHC in 1966 and quite a few of my school friends did their time at BHC later Westlands and now GKN.

The biggest draw back to CNC is cost, not so much the part but the machine/hardware and software and as things stand I can not see that the cost can be justified in our hobby.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 21/08/2014 07:52:38:

Bill,

Showing your age if you were an apprentice at Saunders Roe as it became BHC in 1966 and quite a few of my school friends did their time at BHC later Westlands and now GKN.

The biggest draw back to CNC is cost, not so much the part but the machine/hardware and software and as things stand I can not see that the cost can be justified in our hobby.

No doubt about my age Bob!! Yes I was at Saunders Roe when it became BHC, I finished there in 1969

I also understand about the cost of CNC machines. Another part of my last job was buying new machinery. One of which was a Mazak Integrex in (about) 2003 or 4. At the time the total bill, including lots of options, well most of the options to be fair, came to about AU$450,000. From memory this machine replaced 2 older CNC lathes, two or three milling operations on some subject parts, and was well on the way to paying for itself in something around 2 years. The Integrex is/was a fantastic machine, a very capable lathe with 5 axis milling capability and two spindles, it could make very complex parts completely machined all over in one setting, amazing. If cost was no object I would have one of these, or the latest version in my shed, but obviously they are not practical for the model engineer.

At the same time we got rid of one of two of the Hardinge HLV(??) manual lathes, the turning section asked me to find out how much a new one was. The Hardinge website showed them on "Special Offer" for US$38,000 with free delivery in the US. Shipping to Australia would probably have been another $2000. I'm guessing but I imagine that that was the end of the manual Hardinge lathe. At about the same time we bought a couple of Bridgeport (from Leicester) NC "teach" mills, basically a classic B'port mill with fairly simple NC, they provided a good changeover from manual machines to full CNC. I think that they were something like AU$15,000 at the time but my memory could be misleading me. They would be a good machine for a model engineer. Since they stopped manufacturing in the Leicester factory, obviously they are not made any more!!  At about the same time I was quoted AU$15,000 plus for a well specified Myford (long bed, hardened ways, gearbox etc etc)

cheers

Bill

Edited By Bill Pudney on 21/08/2014 08:38:39

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 21/08/2014 07:52:38:

The biggest draw back to CNC is cost, not so much the part but the machine/hardware and software and as things stand I can not see that the cost can be justified in our hobby.

I am not sure about that. I costed out a machine for myself and I am always really conscious of cost – It was basically an X3 with three stepper motors, ball screws and drivers (My friend has just done a conversion so I am going to ask him – he will know to the penny) the software was all Linux so no cost other than my own time so conceivably if you can find a second hand machine at a good price – include your hardware – you won't be a million miles away from the new cost of an X3.

No, it won't be an all singing all dancing machine, but it would work – quickly and efficiently AND it would give you all the learning you would need for a good grounding in CNC machines.

Bob on here has bought a new Tormack mill and I have fiddled with it a bit. I am very, very impressed with it and I could conceivably justify buying one, $8000 for the base machine and take it from there. It would get you quite far. CNC is the future of the Model Engineering hobby and as more and more people take it up, more and more kit will become available and the prices will start to look reasonable.

I am totally ambivalent as to whether or not people take up CNC machining, I can see quite clearly the direction things are going and John A Stuart has described the different demographic in excellent terms. The two will collide at some point and it is then that the hobby becomes interesting.

graham.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

The biggest draw back to CNC is cost, not so much the part but the machine/hardware and software and as things stand I can not see that the cost can be justified in our hobby.

Bill!

"A fool and their money is easily parted" is what my grannie used to say.

LinuxCNC, (including the ability to take a picture and engrave it) free. The OS it runs on free. QCAD, free. dxf2gcode, free.

Ok, I think I'll give the author of QCAD some money, as he did a really good job of it.

And, I did purchase CamBam (runs on Linux) as a whim, and it's fun, but not used all the time.

Anyway, it is possible to do a really good job with zero cash outlay.

Check out the engraving I just did for a friend; the total software cost (including picture editing, etc) was zero cost. (yes, they need debarred, and the outline is rough cut, it'll be removed to dimensions on the finished model)

How do you get cheaper than zero dollars/pounds/etc?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by John Alexander Stewart on 21/08/2014 13:25:30:

How do you get cheaper than zero dollars/pounds/etc?

"The biggest draw back to CNC is cost, not so much the part but the machine/hardware and software"

John you have only shown that 1/3 of the equasion can be had for zero cost, what about the machine & hardware

[MM57Participant @mm57]

FWIW…I'm part way through (OK, very early days) CNC'ing a Chester 20V – using good quality components – with an estimated total cost the same as adding 3 good quality magnetic sensors and a DRO…

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

"The biggest draw back to CNC is cost, not so much the part but the machine/hardware and software"

John you have only shown that 1/3 of the equasion can be had for zero cost, what about the machine & hardware

Jason – good point – posting before coffee is maybe not a good idea. (sigh)

Ok – I don't keep accurate costings, mainly because shipping to Canada sometimes doubles the cost of the item, so it is not a good indicator. Maybe I'm not the one to ask, but here's my last completed project.

Lets look at my little Unimat CNC conversion.

1) Stepper motors. The ones from Printrbot.com are more powerful than the ones I used, and about the same price. $15.00 US each.

2) Power Supply. I'm using an old 48v power supply, but many use an old computer supply for small machines.

$0.00 US to (say??) $50.00 US.

3) CNC breakout board + stepper drivers. I used a Gecko G540 that I had from another project ($300.00 US) but others use ones from EBay – John Stevenson would know more, but $100.00 tops??

4) Computer with parallel port. Free. Just ask around. Same with old VGA flat screen monitors, and mice and keyboards. Last couple of VGA flat screens were either a) free, and b) $15.00 at the local "recycling" store.

5) Unimat lathe. Mine cost $0.00, but I have some machining to do for a friend. Some year.

The CNC controller is the most expensive part, but I could use the inexpensive "stuff" 3D printer people use, not the G540, which is obviously overkill for this project, but I had it sitting on a shelf… Maybe someone can take this comment and run with it?

Does this help anyone?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thanks John, So with a bit of begging and borrowing you could be up and running for say $500 on a small scale, maybe $1000 for something larger than the Unimat or 3 axis on a small mill.

$500 say £300 seems quite reasonable to me same cost as say a Myford vertical slide or brand name chuck at the same price which many in the hoby seem to be able to justify.

J

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I see lets just cobble a load of old bits together, that may be OK for some but I have found it can be a false economy.

I was thinking more of a decent size CNC machine for making the parts for say a 7.25 loco that doesn't need twenty passes to get to the correct dimension. To me a 4mm cut is not unreasonable on my lathe or my bigger mill, little one may be 1mm but that one is simply not ridged enough for large metal removal.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

There is a sizeable chunk of hobbyists who don't have great wedges of cash to throw around, or simply don't have the space for anything bigger than 'benchtop' machines.

"It ain't what you got, it's what you do with it!"

As for me, I'm about to turn some paper sketches into a Turbocad 21 design. Learning the CAD skills will be rewarding, just as making the actual parts will be.

Neil

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

CNC can make things impossible to make manually, I watched a Marwin machine a one piece turbine rotor about 2 feet diameter and around 10-12 blades from a solid blank, it took about 6 weeks. I would be amazed if anyone could make that on a manual mill.

Mike

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Numerical control was driven by the needs of the aircraft industry after WW II. I think the American military funded much of the original research. The toolroom where I worked as a sparky had some very interesting examples of early numerical control when players like EMI, Ferranti, Olivetti and even a Cincinatti Acramatic 1 grafted on to a massive Hydrotel Mill. These were R&D projects to investigate the viability of making automotive press tools without the use of copy mills which need precision patterns to be made before you can cut the castings.

Mike

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Just looking at the Christmas "double issue" of ME from 1958, things haven't changed much. Complaints about the reducing number of tool stalls at the Model Engineering exhibition, "pointed" remarks at Martin Cleeves for proposing Steel rather than cast iron castings, worries that young people are not engaging with the hobby any more.

The biggest difference is that there was very little actually making anything in the magazine. A bit of a difference with today's magazine. Loco's predominate. There was an article on a model ship and the design for a brass candle stick (The author claiming that anyone turning from solid instead of casting the components was idle…)

Oh and a Myford ML7 was £55 – about two months wages for a skilled man, A decent Warco is probably about 2-3 weeks pay for a skilled bloke these days. This is why I made the earlier point that the average model engineers budget hasn't changed – it just that you can buy a lot more with it.

Steve

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

I see lets just cobble a load of old bits together, that may be OK for some but I have found it can be a false economy.

I was thinking more of a decent size CNC machine for making the parts for say a 7.25 loco that doesn't need twenty passes to get to the correct dimension. To me a 4mm cut is not unreasonable on my lathe or my bigger mill, little one may be 1mm but that one is simply not ridged enough for large metal removal.

Bob;

Two things I have found about CNC since I started machining 45 years ago:

1) small end mills rule. Reason: you keep the tool moving; reduces distortion from machining loads, and heat. You end up with a finished product that is on size, at a fast turn of speed;

2) CNC mills climb mill, reducing heat, tool wear, and producing an incredibly nice finish.

Yes, I was surprised at the above. Yes, it did take me a while to figure out #1 especially.

I think 3-1/2" gauge is the best gauge there is, and if you work it out, it's about 1/8 the "envelope" of a 7-1/4" gauge locomotive, so, *all* tools need to be larger for your 7-1/4" work than my 3-1/2" work.

Regards – JohnS.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Just looking at the Christmas "double issue" of ME from 1958, things haven't changed much.

In 1956 someone was complaining "why do people still insist on using number drills, surely they will be obsolete soon"!

Neil

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Steve,

1958 was a bad year for ME as Vic Smeed had taken charge. this led the following year to LBSC giving up and the circulation of ME dropping considerably till the mid 1960s when Martin Evans took over as editor then managed to persuade LBSC to return to 'Ours' around 1965. in the intervening period articles on model boats abounded and H Tuplin's much criticised 'Hackfly' appeared.

cheers,

julian

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

According to his tribute page Vic Smeed was nowhere near the ME magazine until 1965

There was an executive editor called C. E. WALLER who popped up occasionally

Edited By Ady1 on 21/08/2014 22:30:39

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Vic Smeed was one of the MAP people who saved ME and reinstated LBSC, apparently

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi Ady,

my 'inside knowledge' paints a rather different picture im afraid. Vic Smeed was instrumental in the sanitising of LBSC's writings from the mid 1950's onwards , and Vic Smeed was one of the main reasons LBSC left in 1959. Vic Smeed excercised a control over ME far earlier than your above links suggest. it was Dickie Laidlaw and Martin Evans who persauded LBSC to return to 'Ours' due no doubt to rapid circulation decline, plus offering LBSC a much larger fee! Dickie Laidlaw sidelined Vic Smeed, and left Martin Evans to control ME without Vic's influence, hence circulation resumed it's pre Vic Smeed influence in the mid 1960s and no more model boat building articles!

Vic Smeed was by all accounts not an easy person to get on with or work with, and the direction he sent the ME in the mid to late 1950s proved disastrous commercially. i had few a great late friends who knew all the personalities at the time, and Vic was certainly portrayed as the 'Evil King'!

cheers,

julian

Edited By julian atkins on 21/08/2014 23:17:24

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

I'm pretty much self taught thus proving the axiom "we learn by doing".

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

It's human nature to dismiss anything we don't do ourselves and to be annoyed (partly with ourselves) when we come to suspect we were mistaken.

I may not be of watchmaker class myself but after the best part of 45 years of (both tutored and self-taught) manual and machine practice, I believve I have a reasonable level of machinist skills. I resisted looking into 3D CAD and CNC until the last year or so and now kick myself for being such a complete Luddite, despite the fact I like to think of myself as a technophile.

Engineering companies used to have vast drawing offices where parts were laboriously drawn up using slide rules and drawing boards (I know – I remember them well). The reason they have vanished is that a small handful of CAD engineers can do the same job much quicker and better – and print out automated part and assembly drawings, BOMs, GAs etc in minutes. What is wrong with that? I passed my BS308 test years ago but wouldn't dream of going back.

CNC isn't for mass production only. When you take into account that some one-off jobs require the work to be repositioned and moved from vise to rotary table etc many times, you are keeping yourself very busy – and working hard to avoid human error. Given the choice I don't see anything particularly admirable in persisting with manual methods unless you have an inverse snobbery complex going on. CNC's there if you want it and really the cost isn't the barrier.

Having said that, I don't think anyone here has actually suggested that beginners should shell out for big expensive CNC machinery, unless I've missed something. I think you'll find that most of the CNC users on this forum are actually pretty handy with traditional manual machining techniques but see CNC as another productivity tool (and possibly good clean fun – is that allowed??). Take a look at some of their photos if you need convincing.

Murray

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Posted by Muzzer on 22/08/2014 06:20:07:

…….and possibly good clean fun – is that allowed??……

Murray

Fun….FUN you expect to have FUN……………..outrageous.

cheers

Bill

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I've just started using Turbocad in anger. Previous half-hearted attempts at 3D CAD didn't get very far, and I still have some major things to crack (how do I weld shapes or lines together?) but the main hurdles took a couople of good sessions and a I swallowed my pride and looked at the tutorials

Neil

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

CNC would be great for repetition work but not much fun for "making" stuff since I would simply plug the cutter and workpiece in… then go off to do the gardening

3D printing will eventually make us all luddites IMO, and throw CNC onto the manual lathe scrapheap

RAF jets fly with 3D printed parts

Won't stop me enjoying the hobby though

[Author]

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