‘average model engineer’

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I wonder how long it will be before someone comes up with a design for a home brew laser cutting machine, or has someone already done it.

Ian S C

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ian S C on 19/08/2014 11:15:18:

I wonder how long it will be before someone comes up with a design for a home brew laser cutting machine, or has someone already done it.

Ian S C

I've a mate up the road with a plasma cutter and it certainly is the handiest thing since sliced bread. Will cut from thin sheet up to 20mm thick steel, ally etc etc. Doesnt have a CNC table for it so we just make up plastic or cardboard templates and cut out the shape around that by hand. Beats the hell out of the old chain drilling and hacksawing on the thick stuff, and does a lovely smooth cut that barely needs touching up with a file to finish off. They come up at the auctions cheap enough every now and again.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think our own resident Bodger has already strapped his plasma cutter to the sid eof a CNC mill with a bit of old knicker elastic and used it to cut out pound coin shapes. There is a post somewhere about it.

J

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Ian – there are lots of CNC laser cutters out there bodged together by bodgers – mainly for cardboard, paper, plastic, etc.

look through hackaday.com, and see what you can find. (if you are at all interested) Having seen some high powered lasers in research lab settings, I'm not sure I'd like one at home, but mind you, the 4 metre length, and matching 1 metre thick granite bed might not match what we think of as "home workshop-compatible"!

Yes, the "reflective surface" issue for laser cutting brass and aluminium is a bit of an issue; not something one has to worry about with milling cutters…

[Anonymous]

Posted by CotswoldsPhil on 19/08/2014 10:42:19:

On the other hand, the next issue of ME will include an article I submitted about making small chains (the steering chains for the Minnie actually) – what a contrast.

I look forward to that, as I have just started mulling over the design and manufacture of the steering chains for my traction engines.

Regards,

Andrew

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

If you have a quick sniff about on AliExpress, you can find all the constituent parts for making your own CNC laser cutter or engraver, if that's your thing.

Here's a randomly chosen store that stocks those types of parts – motors, lasers, mirrors etc. Of course, it's questionable whether you are actually "making" your own machine rather than simply assembling parts from a kit onto your own framework. I would challenge anyone to make their own CO2 laser tube, mind…

There is a Darwinian risk to this kind of activity, as you could potentially blind yourself. Rather like using a machine tool without a guard I suppose.

Murray

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

i think that cyril bonnet's post raises some interesting issues for 'model engineers'.

i am a complete luddite with my antiquated and basic machinery, and am quite happy doing things the old fashioned way and have no interest in DRO, CAD or such things. i know very few amateur model engineers in my club or surrounding area in other clubs who are into such things, and perhaps we are the 'silent' majority?!

no, i dont use carbon steel lathe tools, and a dore westbury mill (secondhand) has many years ago replaced the vertical mill on the lathe, so im not quite in the 'dark ages'.

my particular interest is miniature steam loco building, and there is an awful lot of stuff required in a miniature steam loco that i suggest could never be done with modern technology and requires a knowledge of the old fashioned practices and skills to achieve. much the same could be said for many other areas of model engineering. knowing what produces an efficient reliable and long lasting working miniature steam loco is far more important in my book than what someone can do with modern technology and expensive equipment.

of the youngsters i know in the hobby, unless they use work facilities they cant afford to do things other than the old fashioned way anyway!

cheers,

julian

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by julian atkins on 19/08/2014 22:31:12:

of stuff required in a miniature steam loco that i suggest could never be done with modern technology and requires a knowledge of the old fashioned practices and skills to achieve.

cheers,

julian

 

 

Julian

I'm dumbfounded, can you give an example of something that could never be done with modern technology?

Ian P

Edit.

What do you mean by 'Modern', Edwardian times, the 1960s, the 1990s, what?    

Edited By Ian Phillips on 19/08/2014 22:57:29

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi ian,

copper boiler making (flanged plates, silver soldering etc), making boiler fittings, forming platework, rivetting, setting valve gears, fitting parts, making injectors, pipework, painting and lining out and lettering etc? is that enough for you?

cheers,

julian

Edited By julian atkins on 19/08/2014 23:08:57

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Posted by julian atkins on 19/08/2014 23:07:20:

hi ian,

copper boiler making (flanged plates, silver soldering etc), making boiler fittings, forming platework, rivetting, setting valve gears, fitting parts, making injectors, pipework, painting and lining out and lettering etc? is that enough for you?

cheers,

julian

Edited By julian atkins on 19/08/2014 23:08:57

One of the reasons that these skills are no longer practiced is because, in an industrial/commercial sense they are no longer required. No boss is going to train people in activities that will not make a quid. If required modern technology could be used for all these activities, but to be blunt, they are more 19th Century than 21st Century. A bit like blacksmiths, shipwrights, sail makers etc etc. (again, to repeat …IN AN INDUSTRIAL SENSE)

Sad but true.

One of the major reasons that Concorde was grounded was because the skills required to do much of the heavy maintenance no longer existed.

Also sad but true.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, and although I have no desire or interest in building steam locos, I really do admire the skills required to do so.

cheers

Bill

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

I suppose the technical answer is rather academic. However, if we supposed that for some reason we needed to manufacture steam engines using modern technology, you'd be using processes such as robotic arc welding, CNC machine/cut/bend, robot painting etc. As for gears, injectors etc, they would be designed in CAD and made in CNC machines. There would be little need for laborious machine "fitting" because these days you take account of tolerances in the design process.

You can see a lot of this already in use in products like pressure vessels, pipework, food and drink containers, advertising (on vehicles and buildings) and modern engines and transmissions.

I don't think there is any doubt it could be done but for one-off models it would be utterly pointless. As Bill points out, there's no call for these manual skills these days, hence no general capability exists out there.

This whole range of crafts and skills are certainly pretty demanding and I am staggered at the amazing results that many MEs can produce. I can say without any doubt that I could never achieve anything like that myself. This is not purely down to a lack of interest on my part as opposed to a simple lack of capability to begin with!

Murray

Edited By Muzzer on 20/08/2014 04:26:33

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Julian Wrote

"copper boiler making (flanged plates, silver soldering etc), making boiler fittings, forming platework, rivetting, setting valve gears, fitting parts, making injectors, pipework, painting and lining out and lettering etc? is that enough for you?"

Have to agree with you Murry, boiler flanging is not economic on a larger scale, this is  why Steam Technology's copper boilers work out cheaper as they can tig weledthem without flanging, plates can be laser cut to exact size with all tube holes ready to weld up.

As for boiler fittings not being suitable for modern production, anybody ever bought from Steamfittings, they make theirs with CNC machines but for it to be economical need to run several thousand at a time. Even for a one off CNC can be used to make very nice fittings that would not be easy to do by soldering bits of brass together, have a look at this post and the finished item that name plate you can see in the last photo, also done with home CNC.

Another example for making steam engines with modern technology is Steam Traction World, knocked out in batches of 20-50 on CNC machining centres, laser cut parts, CNC metal folding, Mandrel benders for pipework,etc, etc.

I'm sure if they were selling them as complete kits then they would use modern tech' to finish them. I have seen masks for lining out panels cut from film on hobby cutters which are much like the ones signwriters use to cut their vinly. An as for lettering I have used my home printer to make waterslide transfers of makers logos and thats been around for a while.

Its out there and really just the choice of the individual if they want to use it.

J

Edited By JasonB on 20/08/2014 08:06:24

Edited By JasonB on 20/08/2014 08:15:57

[Anonymous]

Ah well, it would seem that I am far too disreputable to be a 'model' engineer.

Andrew

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, the argument of if one has truely made something themselves will go on forever. Take the car industry for instance, excluding the high end companies who make them to order almost, I think the last company to truely make a entire car for general sale was probably Fords of Dagenham (and thats going back a bit) thier site made just about everything that went into making a car. In more recent times most car manufacturers buy in a lot of thier parts and just assemble them in thier factory.

I've just recently done a few weeks work for a sizeable local engineer company who make bespoke stuff to order, however many of the profiles where bought in, and many other S/S parts made from sheet were cut and pressed by another company, part of the job I had was fettling these and checking correctness of them, but the customer still considers the company that I was working for made thier order.

I think Model Engineering is what ever one makes it (pun intended) there is a skill in fitting and good assemble as well as actualy making parts.

Here's a thought about the thinking of if you haven't cut the metal with conventional hand tools, you can't say you have truely made it; so, if you have posted an opinion on this forum, have you truely written it? After all a computer and a forum are not quite the same as pen/pencil and paper.

This hobby is an expensive one but so are a whole load more, take photography for instance, is it wrong to buy a state of the art camara and then say that you alone have taken a second to none photograph with it?

Why not just enjoy what you like doing the best way you can do it to the best of your own ability and with whatevet machinery and materials you can afford. I do.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 20/08/2014 09:46:53

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 20/08/2014 08:23:21:

Ah well, it would seem that I am far too disreputable to be a 'model' engineer.

Andrew

.

Likewise.

The only reason I have not applied for a bus pass is that once it is issued I am then officially a "Muddle Enjineer"

Until then I'll continue to work 13" to the foot.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

| "This hobby is an expensive one but so are a whole load more, take photography for instance,"

Oh dear Nick! I guess my main hobby, in terms of time spent, is photography. I also have a decent workshop where I have, at times, made the odd model. Yep both can be "expensive" hobbies and could take up unlimited amounts of cash. Equally both can be practiced on quite modest budgets. My workshop tools and equipment have been built up over the last 40 or so years and much is second hand. In the early years , when the kids were young, funds were tight so finding the tool at an affordable price was very satisfying. With them all having flown the nest it makes the funding a bit easier!

The great thing with a workshop is that you can "fix" pretty much anything so it is useful for all other interests. Am I a "Model Engineer"? Well, as I said, I have made the odd model and I have a couple on the " back burner " but, compared with some of the efforts I see in the mags and at exhibitions, I'm a hopeless bumbler.

In terms of periodicals that address my workshop interests Model Engineer and Model Engineers Workshop usually have some items that appeal so, as both of those, have "Model Engineer" in the title I guess that's what I will say I am! (……but hey – what's in a name?)

Norman

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Of course, if you were modelling 'Tornado' it would be wrong to hand cut the frames…

"Tornado's 48-foot-6-inch (14.78 m) long steel plates were electronically cut from one piece of steel, as opposed to the original Peppercorn A1, which had two-piece frames riveted together. These are probably the most accurate steam locomotive frames ever produced."

Neil

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think Tornado used quit a few modern techniques to manufacture a classic design. I would imagine that if a coal fired steam loco were to be designed today it would not look much like the classic designs. Modern materials and manufacturing methods would probably allow a designer many more possibilites. I doubt that rivets would be used for anything and welded fabrication would prevail, would steam turbines be used instead of piston engines?

Mike

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by NJH on 20/08/2014 13:23:28:

| "This hobby is an expensive one but so are a whole load more, take photography for instance,"

Oh dear Nick! I guess my main hobby, in terms of time spent, is photography. I also have a decent workshop where I have, at times, made the odd model. Yep both can be "expensive" hobbies and could take up unlimited amounts of cash. Equally both can be practiced on quite modest budgets. My workshop tools and equipment have been built up over the last 40 or so years and much is second hand. In the early years , when the kids were young, funds were tight so finding the tool at an affordable price was very satisfying. With them all having flown the nest it makes the funding a bit easier!

The great ……………..

Norman

Hi Norman, I thought I more or less said that ! in my last paragraph, in a concise kinda way.

Regards Nick

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Michael Poole on 20/08/2014 17:14:25:

………………. would steam turbines be used instead of piston engines?

Mike

Hi, Heaven forbid ! It wouldn't be a proper choo choo, and JS might not be able to moan about it

Regards Nick.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

The cost of model engineering is not as bad as motorsport, it was costing £1k per event (BTRDA rally) in the mid 90's that included fuel, 6 ish miles to the gallon on stage, entry fee, tyres etc. Not included, accommodation food, beer, and repair costs.

[CotswoldsPhilParticipant @cotswoldsphil]

Hi Andrew (Johnson)

You wrote …… I look forward to that (small chain article), as I have just started mulling over the design and manufacture of the steering chains for my traction engines.

My traction engine is the 1 inch scale Minnie, so small chains are the order of the day – I hope you are not disappointed – although the method I describe should be possible to scale up, or indeed scale down depending on your eyesight!

I spent the best part of 42 years constructing my Minnie, interleaved with work and family life. My enthusiasm was dented in the latter years by looking at the broken steering chain where someone, at some point, had turned the steering wheel and pulled the commercially available chain apart. I just had to sort it out, which lead to my photographing the process and preparing an article.

So after 42 years my Minnie is complete.

Regards

Phil H

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Firstly, I am definitely not a model engineer. This thread seems to me to be very straightforward. If you operate a manual machine to make a part, then YOU have made it. The machine could not make it without you. A cnc machine could make the part without any input, apart from its program, and being provided with the right tooling and raw materials. In effect, the machine has made the part, YOU did not. That is why centre lathe turners are "skilled" and CNC minders are not. It is only neccasary for someone, somewhere to write the software for the machine to make the parts to be asembled into a model, but the machine made it, the operator merely pressed the start button. CNC is generally not used for prototyping or "one off" jobs, it is a tool of mass production, It makes millions of parts at the lowest possible price, and mass production is about as far away from model engineering as the work I do building prototype machines is.For most of the components I require, by the time I had written and debugged a program, I could have made the part! the chances of me ever needing another identical part are virtually nil. As to paying someone else to do the donkey work, well, model engineers have been buying unmachined and semi machined castings for years. It is all a matter of skill, or de-skilling, it all depends whether you want to be an engineer or a computer programmer. Good cnc machines are not cheap, cheap cnc machines are not good! I saw someone complaining that all the 3D printer groups have died off and I really can't say I am surprised. Everyone was lured in to the sc-fi "thing maker" dream, and now the reality that you can make anything you want, as long as it is in (very expensive feedstock) plastic, has come home to roost. 3d printing of course has some uses, especially in the medical field, using hugely expensive machines and clean room technology, but at the other end of the scale they are useless. If you look at the hours put into the "worlds first plastic gun" (trust the Yanks to make a gun!) you could, in the same time have made many real guns,on machinery made and designed hundreds of years ago, and you could have fired them more than once as well!!

When computers first entered the education system, there was much talk of how they would "revolutionise" education…………………..it simply hasn't happened. Exam results are certainly no better today than they were in the pre computer era, and many claim they are worse (my wife is a degree level mathmetician and teaches advanced maths at secondary school) All the metalwork and woodwork shop equipment was sold off (I know, I bought it and replaced with a subject called (in our local school) Resistant Materials, where little Johnny would "design" a camera, or at least the SHAPE of a camera on 3D cad which would then be chewed out of plastic billet by something from Denfords, and little Johnny would get his CAD/CAM certificate, which was of course completely worthless as by the time he left school all the CAD/CAM had gone overseas. Computers are a clever bit of innovation, but they themselves cannot innovate, only WE can. If we want a better computer, or a better anything, WE have to innovate and engineer it into existence. Only then can we set the CNC machines to mass produce it.

It all depends whether you want to be a skilled innovator, or an unskilled machine minder. I know which appeals to me!. If you are in the other camp, why not get an interweb connection straight into your shed, write a bit of software to search the net for cad plans, then you would only have to go there once a week to load new stock, and you could pay someone to do that, and the assembly for you. Then you wouldnt have to dirty your hands or waste time on such a tedious hobby.

I am wearing a fully fireproof suit, asbestos underwear, safety boots and a welding helmet, FLAME AWAY

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

With respect Phil, I really think you are oversimplifying the CNC thing. You are making it sound like a popcorn machine spitting out thousands of like components overseen by a dullard.

Which is far from the truth in my opinion and experience.

graham..

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Phil – Respectfully:

The guys at the work machine shop (producing scientific parts for technical research) can not understand why someone would use a manual milling machine for one-offs.

And, on demonstration, I can understand why they say that; and I agree with them. Their machines can take GCODE, or can be "conversationally programmed", much like one would do on a mill, but without the handle twiddling and mistakes.

The CNC programmes I produce, for instance, the set of name plates engraved with raised letters could have been done from PC-board etching, or some other farmed-out process, or I could have done them at home, all my own work, on my CNC mill. So, I did them at home.

I think you should have a cuppa, and re-read your very positive and spot-on comment "Computers are a clever bit of innovation, but by themselves cannot innovate, only WE can" – and think about the computers in your life, and how they have changed the way we work – no asking for an operator to make a call, no sending these communications by ink and quill, and cars that actually start when it's cold!

Feel free to read and comment on **LINK**; yes, it is my blog.

Hope you read this positively – JohnS

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