‘average model engineer’

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Instead of Model Engineering perhaps can we rename the magazine something along the lines of ‘Splash the Cash, incorporating the defunct model engineering

And you can't blame the ME hobby for our consumer driven society

When we were nippers buying anything except (expensive) food was a considered purchase

Now both parents work full time, the child is a mere hatchling farmed out to a childminding factory and people are bombarded with "buy our crap" adverts 24/7

And it's what people want nowadays

Most people are happy to dedicate their entire lives to doing nothing except making money and spending it on stuff they don't need and keeping up with the Jones's next door

When they finally retire… a few finally ask themselves…

"…what did we do with our lives??"

Edited By Ady1 on 17/08/2014 12:12:50

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Last year l headed up. A booth at the local maker faire. Here's a writeup of it: http://cnc-for-model-engineers.blogspot.ca/2013/09/ottawa-maker-faire-2013.html

 

Had a cnc'd unimat lathe moving it's axes around for two days.

Rough observation: anyone younger than 40 asked "OK you are running linuxcnc but what is that machine its moving?"

People older knew it was a lathe but wondered how it was moving by itself!

 

My conclusion: CNC and Cad and anything that ties computers to our hobby is integral to the future of the hobby.

JohnS

Edited By John Alexander Stewart on 17/08/2014 13:45:52

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 17/08/2014 08:26:00:

It's the sort of insular attitude displayed by Cyril (and some others) that mean I no longer bother posting about what I am doing in the workshop on this forum.

Andrew

Andrew, I, too, miss your postings. Feel free to start again.

I had put my blog "**LINK**" into hiatus status for the summer as I thought It as too far out there for the Model Engineering community as a whole, but I got some private emails indicating that it was missed – people were using it as a direction to work towards.

JohnS.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

As many know I'm not into choo choo's or scale models, I usually work at 13" to the foot but one observation I have made and in part it supports what Cyril says, but only at one point in time.

Cyril bemoans the cheque book engineering approach and in some ways in a different galaxy he would have been right. Roll up at a track day with something built up from a kit and you would have been laughed at.

Fast forward to today and clubs who know they have to accept this scenario or die even run Polly Model track days to cater to the very large influx of Polly kits about today.

But why do they exist ?

It's because time is short due to modern living pressures that our intrepid engineer know that if he doesn't buy into the hobby he won't get a chance. And on a sub level Andy Clark at Polly can only hit these targets by embracing the latest technology with CNC lathes mills and Swiss sliding head lathes.

OK enough said, don't forget to put the cheque in the post Andy.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I'm sure much the same were said when Drummond offered an electric motor to replace the old treadle machines.

"You can't get the feel of the cut with an electric motor" and "Why pay good money for motor when sweat is free?"

I dont think model engineering was ever a cheap hobby. A new Drummond or Myford lathe in the first half of the 20th century cost a small fortune — beyond the means of most working men.

And a milling machine just was not even thinkable — hence the prevalence of vertical slides for lathes. Yet today, we can look at a little Sieg X2 mill for about $800 here in Oz — the cost of registering and insuring two motorbikes for a year, or getting the valves on your Ducati adjusted, or buying half a dozen pairs of jeans.

Seems like in some ways the hobby is cheaper than it once was. I know I have tools and gear that my old man would never have dreamed of splurging on — stuff like a new dial indicator, six inch micrometer set and telescopic gauges, which was dear as poison 40 years ago but very affordable today.

Mind you, I am still looking at that mill — but continuing to use my hacksaw and file in the mean time.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I think some people may have misunderstood the OP but anyway. Have you looked at model boating recently – the first quetion anyone asks is "which kit". Model Airplanes are much the same and few would design their own wings in the way they used to. The magazines reflect this and perhaps the ME stable will follow. The first copies of ME I bought in the '70s are still relevant and entertaining now, as are most current issues will be in 40 years. But who reads a 4 year old copy of an computer magazine let alone a 40 year old one?

I see a different problem in the future. With manual machines you have to be pretty thick not to work out how to operate and maintain them, with some advice off here if you are too lazy to think. But in 20 years, even now, the electronics of an ex industrial machine are vastly more complicated, and fragile making them unrepairable even by most professional electronics engineers.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Bazyle on 17/08/2014 16:51:52:

I think some people may have misunderstood the OP but anyway. Have you looked at model boating……..

I'm not even sure the OP understood what he wrote, I certainly didn't!

Ian P

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Just skipped through this whole thread and see there have been more than 30 replies without any further input from Cyril. (maybe for some reason he has not seen the thread that he started)

I'm not sure what he was really trying to say (although lots of us have made some sort of interpretation), however I have often seen really long threads (not just here, but on on lots of different forums and subjects) discussions that go on for days (offering solutions, answers and help) and the original poster never appears.

Maybe we all have too much spare time?

Ian P

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Ian Phillips on 17/08/2014 17:16:29:

Maybe we all have too much spare time?

Ian P

Not sure about that but we all certainly have an opinion!

graham.

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

Much prefer to do things by hand, if it takes 3 hours to do something so be it, I am not in a hurry and not after making money. Also having to make do with what you have got teaches you skills which in my view are disappearing. I once worked for a company where we often had to do things on site,( we serviced 1950's/60's industrial diesels) it's amazing what you can do with a magnetic drill, a flat ended drill bit, few bits of steel, mole grips, nuts and a bit of studding hey presto a basic milling machine/lathe!

Just my opinion.

Mark P.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Suffice to say the original 'Flight of the Phoenix' was one of my favourite films as a boy!

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I wonder if it's landed yet ?

They reckon that 90% of all Harley Davidsons built are still on the road, the other 10% made it home.

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

I have an opinion too, it is worth what you are paying for it…

AS far as cheque book engineering goes, it is not new. LBSC used to build locomotives to order, and there were others too, even back before the Great War. Some guys want to build locos, some just want to run them.

There is no particular virtue in doing things the hard way when there is an easier way available to you, although I guess there does come a point where you can't fairly say you built it yourself. But after all the whole point of engineering has been to make things easier. I could admire Tubal Cains "Handmaiden" as a tour de force, but could never make myself do things by hand like that if I had the machines available. On the other hand, where I don't have the right machine I can if necessary do the job by had…or if I had the money, would equally happily farm the job out to someone who did.

John

[Cyril BonnettParticipant @cyrilbonnett24790]

Ian

I have always enjoyed reading ME, my point is that the magazine seems to have moved away from the 'average model engineer' if there is such a person towards that of glossy money making rag and the shelves of newsagents are full of them.

Most of my time is spent with my family and friends none of which are in anyway interested with my hobby apart from curiosity, my other hobby is computers and has been since the 1980's but I have no wish to amalgamate the two.

Time and time again we hear that youngsters are not being encouraged into 'model engineering and that our youth lack many of the hands on skills that were taught in schools of the last century, skills that have lasted a life time.

Only last night I was browsing through copies of ME from the 1950/60s and what a difference in content, there is so much more to model engineering than CAD, laser cut frames or CNC controlled lathes and mills.

Each to their own though.

 

Edited By Cyril Bonnett on 18/08/2014 13:22:46

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I have two grandsons. The elder showed a lot of promise in his early teens: indeed, his mother at one parents evening was met with "I understand Jamie's Grandad has a lathe". Unfortunately, he has ended up working for the family agricultural contracting business, but still knows what a lathe is and what it can do for him.

The younger grandson, never showed much interest in my equipment, and not too much in school engineering until he came to his project in Year 11 (old 5th form) when he used my lathe to make some parts for the project. He went to a local factory on Work Experience and decided that he wanted to go into engineering of some sort. He has managed to obtain a mechanical engineering apprenticeship at the same factory. Just recently, he was talking about bench work, and having to make a 50mm x 6mm x 6mm key (to enable a rod to turn something else) by hacksawing and filing.

There is still hope for some of our youngsters.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[John BromleyParticipant @johnbromley78794]

I'm am relatively new to the hobby and it seems to me this is not a particularly cheap hobby full stop. I like many have a mortgage and bills to be paid. The fact that somebody has more to spend on their hobby than me is of no consequence. Good luck to them.

I have to budget my hobby very carefully. What many would require as the basics to even make a start in the hobby, are in my mind hugely expensive and quite lavish purchases in the greater scheme of things.

A lathe, drill, grinder, then theres all the measuring tools, cutting tools, chucks, collets etc etc…. None of it cheap.

If someone has the means and the desire to purchase equipment beyond your grasp or not in keeping with your idea of what passes for model engineering, please don't be too critical. Even on my limited budget others think me quite mad and see my purchases as unnecessary.

Aside that, for the moment I'm strictly in the manual machine camp, but who knows as my involvement with model engineering increases I too may look to modern time saving methods of production.

John

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

John, if your young enough you have time ahead you purchase wisely and collect over many years. I am 56 and started model engineering in my 20's. As the kids grew so did the gaps between modelling and only since my 50 the have I really had time and spare cash to move forwards again.

One of the best things I did was join a club, three years ago! It's amazing how people have kit to pass on or lend.

where are you based?

Brian

[John BromleyParticipant @johnbromley78794]

Hi Brian, I'm in North Kent.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Surely the model engineers of the past would have welcomed laser cut frames and cnc in the workshop, the model engineers workshop will reflect the equipment and practice available to industry but on a small scale.

I went to a lecture at the Midland ME show where a certain Mr Stevenson outlined how CNC could maximise workshop time while you can sit indoors keeping the family happy with your presence while in reality you are on the laptop producing the cad or CNC program for the next precious opportunity in the workshop.

The depth of ones pocket will allow a lucky few to have a Hardinge and Aciera or Deckel and some will make wonderful things with a hacksaw and files.

Mike

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

Ah too far away for you to visit ;(

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Cyril Bonnett on 18/08/2014 13:22:32:

Ian

I have always enjoyed reading ME, my point is that the magazine seems to have moved away from the 'average model engineer' if there is such a person towards that of glossy money making rag and the shelves of newsagents are full of them.

Only last night I was browsing through copies of ME from the 1950/60s and what a difference in content, there is so much more to model engineering than CAD, laser cut frames or CNC controlled lathes and mills.

Each to their own though.

Edited By Cyril Bonnett on 18/08/2014 13:22:46

Cyril

My initial reply to this thread was to ask for clarification on what you referred to as model engineering. With the benefit of reading the rest of thread etc I now know it was the 'Model Engineer' magazine. One thing that is worth bearing in mind is that whilst this website and forum has model engineer in its title, half or more, of the people (member/readers/subscribers/posters etc) are not engineers who make models. I subscribe to MEW read ME occasionally.

I think you have to accept that times change. Model engineering is done on all levels of skill and not always as a hobby, some modelmakers get pleasure out of making models but then get even more pleasure selling their work.

Ian P

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

I have no comprehension of this concept that engineering (model or otherwise) is an activity you turn to once you retire, with no previous experience or inclination. I suspect many MEs are more like me – for whom technology and engineering are a lifestyle and a passion. I've spent most of my life since primary school immersing myself in technology of almost any form, from cars, bikes. electronics, software, machine tools, welding, building, plumbing etc both professionally (getting paid to enjoy myself!) and in my own time. It's about fun and enjoyment surely, not ticking off the days and weeks.

I'm not shy of getting my hands dirty and putting sweat into what I do but I'm not about to make my own machine tools from scratch or cut and file parts from solid for no reason. That would be completely stupid and I like to think when I am tackling a job I'm doing it in a reasonably efficient way. As I see it, engineers can tackle jobs that they or others may never have tackled before.

I don't get paid badly but I won't splash out silly money on selfish indulgences like flashy cars or big tellys. I have family dependents, mortgage, retirement etc to think about. When I buy machine tools, I buy quality used examples that are fundamentally sound but may not be pretty, at a fraction of new cost and often requiring me to put in a fair bit of elbow grease to get working. As for CNC and CAD costs, you can do pretty well without spending much. It's simply a question of what you want to spend your time doing. I suspect I have a lot less free time than many of the retired hobbyists but I try to make it count. Standing at a machine turning a handle slowly is ok for the first few minutes but after a few hours the novelty has worn off.

I've been taking ME and/or MEW on and off for almost 40 years and have never made a model as such. I'm not unusual in that – and it's not about to change. However, as an (initially) amateur engineer, ME was THE place to learn about workshop practice and is still pretty relevant.

If today's young engineers (makers?) had exactly the same experiences as we did at their age, progress would grind to a halt. It'll never happen of course, which is why technology is unstoppable. It's pretty well impossible for us to comprehend where things will be in 50 years from now but I'd love to be around to see it. It's going to involve digital control, power electronics, software, CAD and all sorts – stuff our kids have known all their lives but which wasn't even a wild imagining when we were young. I expect that filing simple components from lumps of metal won't be illegal but will still be a minority sport…..

Merry

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Murray,

Similar experience, very similar views!

Simon

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Simon0362 on 19/08/2014 09:10:38:

Murray,

Similar experience, very similar views!

Simon

Murray

I'm of the same opinion, being in the same 'demographic'. (which seems to be the buzzword these days).

Ian P

[CotswoldsPhilParticipant @cotswoldsphil]

Morning all,

Times change – I have been interested in engineering since I was a lad in the early 60's. My Uncle had a workshop in the back garden with, at first, an ML7 made in the late 40's, and later a Myford Super 7, complimented with a drill press and a little hand shaper – no milling machine, it was all done on the lathe with the trusty swiveling slide and tiny milling vice. I watched as he made fine examples of 15 / 20 / 30cc 4 stroke internal combustion engines, I remember names like Beaver and Otter – I think we visited at least one designer at his workshop, because we collected castings from there.

When I started work, I could not afford a Super 7 but I acquired a very clean, little used, ML7 from an elderly gentleman who, after a faltering start, had decided that model engineering was not for him. The machine came with some tooling and along with a Fobco Star drill I purchased new, I started making a Minnie traction engine.

Along the way, between earning a living and bringing up a family, I made / repaired all-sorts of things, and developed new skills that would have been impossible had I not had the workshop. Over the years a Naerok milling machine was added (Korean spelt backwards! to the uninitiated) I made the adjustable boring-head designed by George Thomas, as published in ME, as a test piece, cutting dovetail slides etc. I'm now semi-retired and have rekindled my interest and have finally completed my Minnie traction engine after 42 years; is that a record?

Following a long search on EBay and GumTree and the ME for-sale section, I have finally acquired a very clean, little used, Myford Super 7 with stand, chucks and some tooling. This will replace the well loved and lightly used ML7 which I hope to sell on, as a package, to the next generation of budding engineers, who like me want to get started.

I've taken ME on and off for 50 years (I now have a subscription again) and find the content stimulating. The article on lasers is especially informative, as I hope to obtain laser etched brass plates from a company I work with, for my Minnie traction engine, which I now understand will need to be coated in some way to reduce any reflection during processing which might otherwise damage the laser source. On the other hand, the next issue of ME will include an article I submitted about making small chains (the steering chains for the Minnie actually) – what a contrast.

Regards

Phil H

[Author]

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