Are we Luddites?

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Andy Carruthers on 30/05/2018 15:24:06:

I know this is off-topic but in my defence I am following the thread…

I *think* it was Adam Smith who (and I paraphrase) it is madness to produce something that can be bought cheaper elsewhere

I do think Norman Tebbit had a point about moving to where the work is, but I also accept there may be reasons why not everyone can do so

Which kinda gets me back on-topic – skills can be developed and people can retrain sometimes in short timeframes, as an example, I am hiring window fitters but there is a dearth of appropriately skilled people with the right attitude about, and the current construction boom is causing rates to sky rocket

If model engineers all believed that, we'd just be buying ready-to-run models rather than setting up our own home machine-shops. I think we do it because we like the work itself and because we enjoy the increase of our understanding of the design choices that go into making a mechanical device.

If you live in an area where there's effectively only one main industry for tens of miles around, and whole communities have been based on that industry for a century or more, there are actually vanishingly few people in that area who can take Tebbit's advice – least of all on a bike! If a government decides to delete huge numbers of livelihoods in such an area, it should clearly put in serious work locally to replace such livelihoods.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by richardandtracy on 30/05/2018 15:46:05:

People have been moving to where the work is.

That is why so many EU nationals have moved to the UK. The work is here, in spades (and pipes, and plumbing and fruit picking and farming and.. millions of jobs). The Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks, Bulgarians & Romanians I have met work at an effort level and rate that puts the UK born to shame. They do the jobs that many of our own unemployed will not do, and do not do. As I sit here typing I am facing a social housing estate where there is 90% unemployment and 90% UK birth. In the town there is 4% unemployment, but there has been about 15% immigration from Europe in the last 10 years, and virtually none of the immigrants are unemployed. The unemployed seem – from the 90 household sink estate in front of me – to be unwilling to get up to take their kids to school, unwilling to get dressed, and unwilling to do anything other than procreate. They may have problems, medical or otherwise, but little of it is evident from the outside. After commuting on foot through the estate for 5 years, I can identify 50% of the adults and a majority could work if they could be bothered to get up, wash, dress, take some exercise and behave like a human being with some pretensions to civilisation.

The issues in mining communities are different, but 30 years is quite a time for someone with get-up-and-go to get-up-and-be-gone.

Regards,

Richard.

Can I ask what is/was your chosen occupation, the industry & whether or not your pension is final salary/index linked, or one of the many other schemes?

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Mick B1 on 30/05/2018 15:54:46:

If model engineers all believed that, we'd just be buying ready-to-run models rather than setting up our own home machine-shops. I think we do it because we like the work itself and because we enjoy the increase of our understanding of the design choices that go into making a mechanical device.

My nail has just been hit firmly on it's head.

I think, most of all, I need to hold something in my hands, turn to someone important in my life, & be able to say "I made that".

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

When I left school, I joined the Merchant Navy and thought that if I wanted to remain afloat, there would be a job for life for me (and others who joined up at the time). What a shock it was to the system to find that the British Merchant Navy was almost defunct by the time of the Falkands war – that the country was struggling to find not only the vessels, but the (British) manpower for them.

Today, the only vessels visiting UK ports on a regular basis are a few ferries and some specialist vessels. All others are foreign registered and crewed.

Fortunately, I got out of the MN at my time of choosing before being made redundant.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

My comment refers to commercial activity such as coal mining and not to producing "things of beauty" in our spare time which we can rightly be proud of, perhaps I could have made my comment clearer

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Mick,

I grew up in N Devon. I am a professional mechanical engineer, current industry – boxes (fancy metal ones). I have spent a few years as a stress engineer on aircraft interiors. No jobs in N Devon, so I moved to Kent where there were jobs. I literally got on my (motor)bike and went after a job. Did it in 1987. Pension prospect is negligible as it's a contribution one, not salary linked. When I joined the company there was a final salary scheme, but that went down the tube in 1990.

Regards,

Richard.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Andy Carruthers on 30/05/2018 16:23:49:

My comment refers to commercial activity such as coal mining and not to producing "things of beauty" in our spare time which we can rightly be proud of, perhaps I could have made my comment clearer

I think it was 'Jock' Smith, on the lines at Orgreave who said "Be careful that those who you see when you look down your nose aren't about to bite it off".

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

Sorry Mick, I don't see the relevance of your comment, in no way am I looking down on anyone

Edit – Ahh I see, you have equated my paraphrase of Adam Smith as demeaning in some way to coal miners – not true, was more a reflection of Duncan's post. If coal can be bought cheaper than "we" can mine locally, why would it make sense to persist with mining?, it's an economic argument, not a slight against coal miners

Edited By Andy Carruthers on 30/05/2018 16:51:00

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Andy Carruthers on 30/05/2018 16:48:07:

Sorry Mick, I don't see the relevance of your comment, in no way am I looking down on anyone

Edit – Ahh I see, you have equated my paraphrase of Adam Smith as demeaning in some way to coal miners – not true, was more a reflection of Duncan's post. If coal can be bought cheaper than "we" can mine locally, why would it make sense to persist with mining?, it's an economic argument, not a slight against coal miners

Edited By Andy Carruthers on 30/05/2018 16:51:00

I was told many years ago to forget trying to understand politics & to concentrate on trying to understand economics.

The two are combined, don't you think?

No. They most certainly are not. We, the people, are supposed to drive politics & deep down we know this to be untrue. Economics is driven by something we do not understand, by people we do not know.

If you think that there is an economic argument to shut down an industry, to throw 1000's on the dole, then you do not understand economics.

The state of our railways is currently very much in vogue. You will not & you cannot get the truth from your MSM of choice. You need to grab hold of the next railway employee you meet on the platform & hope that they are eloquent enuff to sum it up for you. You may have already formed your opinion on the current state of our railways & you are most certainly wrong.

Our railways can never make a profit in their own right & they should never be pressured to do so. Their profit should come from the benefits they bring to the economy as a whole.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Can we let the mine closure issue lie, please.

Feelings run very deep on both sides, and it's rather sad if we allows this episode of our history to continue to divide us, rather than learning from it and accepting our differences.

Neil

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Mick Charity on 30/05/2018 18:02:40:

…

Our railways can never make a profit in their own right & they should never be pressured to do so. Their profit should come from the benefits they bring to the economy as a whole.

I'd agree with that for the present or even in Beeching's time, but that would never've got 'em built in the first place. They weren't put in by philanthropists.

So we have a resource, created for economic reasons, which we now think should be sustained for political ones that would've been unguessable at the start.

That might mean that human technical progress – such as it is – is a much more random affair than we like to believe, and we're not as bright as we think we are.

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