Are we Luddites?

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

A reply to the question at the top of the "smoke rings" page in the newest M. E. magazine, issue 4587 … YES, I am a Luddite, also known as a dinosaur by many … apparently I started chopping up lumps of metal and wood when I was less than 5 years old, so I have been told … I did everything by hand and am quite happy to continue doing so … howeve, if somone delivered( all pre-paid ) some CNC equipment, plus posh lathe, plus CNC mill, plus brand-new laptop, and stayed around for 6 months or a year to give me instructions, then I would be very happy to use it all … somehow that is not likely to happen ! The problem for me would be trying to get everything to work on command without vast amounts of button-pushing … I am now 70, but I think I would soon be picking up my sledgehammer and going back to hand-building.

Nearly forgot, "the shed" needs extending as well … there is one benefit to doing everything by hand … using a file, hacksaw and sometimes a hand-drill does keep me out of the "comfy chair" … it is useful exercise and tends to keep the blood-flow from clogging up … I know "the chair" will eventually get me … I am trying to delay that day as much as possible … things like personal health do not figure very much in this magazine … I know lots of people of similar age who are now getting trapped in the "chair"

martin

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Good for you Martin, nothing wrong with what you are doing. My Dad never accepted the computer although I was most involved with them. However he loved his electronic calculator, being able to readily access Sine, Tan etc so he could work out some scientific statement he read in the newspaper. He had a tired old lathe that had been made from another old lathe that had been shattered by a bomb in WW2.
I am happy with my Boxford lathe and a Mill Drill and have neighbours queuing up for impossible bits to be mended, or "have you got a nut to fit this bolt" Oh and can you make it a bit shorter.
Yes, carry on the way you are – Its a shame that we don't see more projects made with limited resources on this forum. Perhaps there should be Forum post for just that.
BobH

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I'd have to disagree about us being Luddites, we don't go about smashing machinery (usually).

Brian

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

So, are we saying that the skillset for manual operation of machinery is to be lost forever because cnc is the way?

Thinking about it, cnc relies on a computer, if the computer dies, the machine cannot be operated because the operator does not know how?

I think Luddite is a bit strong…..anyway, I see nothing wrong in traditional manual methods…..I think I'll write to the Editor on a piece of slate with chalk, and have it hand delivered….

[Graham TitmanParticipant @grahamtitman81812]

BDH said "I'D have to disagree about us being Luddites, we don't go about smashing up machinery (usually).

 

Well not on purpose

Edited By Graham Titman on 25/05/2018 12:53:10

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

My view is simple.

Everyone should practice their hobby as they see fit – it is a hobby!

But if we exclude new technology from model engineering, there isn't going to be much of the hobby left in twenty years time.

A look back at any old copies of ME will show a great deal of excitement and experimentation with what were then 'new' technologies.

It's also the Society of "Model AND Experimental" Engineers not "Model OR Experimental", it isn't a binary choice.

Neil

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

TO NEIL … nicely put … it is a hobby … what will happen in 20 years I have no idea … but I wonder if hand methods or newest technology will win out ?? surely for most beginners to get a feel for the hobby they should be able to start at a low cost ?? … to say to people it is 90% essential to fill the workshop with lots of expensive gadgets before they can do anything might be counter-productive … I think this might scare some potential newcomers away … our hobby may be struggling inside the 20 years … they might go straight back to their smart phone, I pad, tablet or whatever … mind you that could put them firmly in the "comfy chair" … maybe not good for their future or fitness either.

TO SPEEDY BUILDER5 … if you want some more low technology "thingys" I have been building weird contraptions for decades … if people are not sick of my contributions to M. E. as being too primitive, I can rustle up plenty more.

martin

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The impression I get from what our suppliers supply to us is that we have plenty of choice of manual machinery and CNC is still a niche market. DROs seem to be widely available and accepted by most as very useful and not a step too far into electronic aids. As most over 60s probably learned machining on manual machines if they have any previous experience then unless they feel adventurous and want to learn something new then manual will probably be the first choice. I expect this will change as younger people will be familiar with CNC if the have done machining training and the demand for Home workshop CNC will rise and be reflected in suppliers ranges. The home workshop community will become more accepting of CNC. When David was editor of MEW and offered articles on CNC he was met with quite a vocal opposition and it seemed the time was not yet right. The Internet was for a long time the preserve of geeky early adopters but by the end of the 90s a tipping point seemed to be reached. My wife has organised a number of school reunions and so has a view of how many people from her year are still not connected or PC users and it seems to be 10/15% of 60 year olds are not yet in the 21st century.

Mike

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by BDH on 25/05/2018 12:43:00:

I'd have to disagree about us being Luddites, we don't go about smashing machinery (usually).

Brian

Only when we go moving mills about on tiny wheels

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mike Poole on 25/05/2018 14:39:42:

…

My wife has organised a number of school reunions and so has a view of how many people from her year are still not connected or PC users and it seems to be 10/15% of 60 year olds are not yet in the 21st century.

Mike

I wonder if that's true across the board? All the 60 year olds I know are more-or-less computer literate. I have to search 70 and up to find people who truly know nothing about computers, and even in the 70+ group I know several competent silver surfers.

Time marches on, and what was once pure geek territory becomes commonplace. Someone who was 60 this year will have spent most of their adult life exposed to computers:

• In 1990 17% of UK households owned a computer – that's a lot. Today's 60 year old would have been aged 32 and could have been keen on games etc even if he didn't want to be a computer programmer.
• By 2000 PCs and the Internet were off and running and 44% of UK households owned a computer. Our chap was still only 42.
• In 2010, 77% of UK households had a computer. Now our hero is 52 and not quite so interested, but her kids are thoroughly familiar with IT. They are taught it at school.
• Last year (2017) computers are in 88% of UK households, young people are never off their Smart Phones, and most motorists have a SatNav. Young adults entering the workplace have grown up totally exposed to computers and have never seen real smoke-stack industry let alone worked in one. Their views and interests are unlikely to match mine, and my life experiences may be completely irrelevant to them. The past is a foreign country…

I don't think CNC is a threat to the hobby at all. My Nephew (22) likes technical subjects, has a technical job, and likes making things. He's interested in my manual machines. I guess when he retires in 2066 he might well want a workshop and machine tools. By then Myfords in good nick will be thin on the ground, so he'll probably buy a new hobby machine. I guess making clocks and steam engines will always be popular, as will experimental engineering. By then most hobby machines will be CNC capable; mass sales push costs down. But many people will still like using basic tools, even if they drive CNC as well.

Hobby machines are unlikely to be made in China or India because their economies will be fully developed by then. Who knows – perhaps it will be the UK's turn to manufacture stuff again.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 25/05/2018 17:53:12

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by martin ranson 2 on 25/05/2018 14:36:22:

surely for most beginners to get a feel for the hobby they should be able to start at a low cost ?? … to say to people it is 90% essential to fill the workshop with lots of expensive gadgets before they can do anything might be counter-productive …

I certainly agree, but access to affordable laser cut parts or a 3D printer might be the sort of things that help people get started with relatively basic kit.

Not greatly different from starting model engineering by assembling and finishing pre-machined kits.

Neil

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I think SOD is pretty much on the money.

Those who want to work on manual machinery for their hobby aren't comparable to Luddites – there's little threat to great numbers of livelihoods and no destruction of machinery. It's an extremist name for a mild preference.

CNC represents an additional layer of technology to learn. If you're to be truly in control of the action of these machines, you have to know the same stuff about rakes, clearances, speeds and feeds etc. that you need to run manual tools. So if your objective is to produce attractive working models, for all but the most elaborate projects you'll get there sooner from a standing start with manual.

Many of us have been keen followers of tech for a long time in the past, but got to the point where we can do what we want with what we've got, and developing our capabilities with more tech risks diminishing returns for both time and money.

There's an old Arthur C. Clark SF short called 'Superiority' …..

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

The ultimate cnc still does not exist yet, but they are slowly getting there. Be it a manual machine or a cnc machine tool, to make very precise parts, still requires a high level of skill either way and the ability to be able to measure what you are making. Now there is 3d printing of metal parts from what look like regular plastic 3d printers, they those parts are sintered . cnc is just another tool technology to make things with and have fun doing so at the same time.

Neil

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I can remember reading some old Model Engineer mags and many of the letters were bemoaning to use of electic powered lathes, "it just isn't real Model Engineering, what wrong with treadle lathes".

Brian

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Luddites?

Yes, and no. Sounds like an equivocal answer, I know, but I don't think it's an easily answered question.

On the yes side: We are old fashioned enough to want to know how things work, feel that simple, passive consumerism is not enough. And critically, we want to do something about it. That is where the luddism comes in. The modern world is structured so that if the current toy is unsatisfying, you are supposed to buy the new, improved model from Amazon as that will fulfil all your wants. How dare anyone feel that they know better and make it themselves?

On the no side: Let me ask you a question. Do you have a vfd, a dro, or a digital caliper anywhere in your shop? Now tell me that they are not high tech items with a straight face. I won't believe you, however straight the face. Do you have insert tools, or are thinking about them? Just how new are they? I'd doubt if they're as old an idea as a PC. And.. Well, look at this forum. It exists. Is the www the medium of the current revolution? Yes, and look, we're part of it right here, right now. So no, we're not luddites, just selective adopters, same as a 17yo. The difference being the 17yo tends to adopt new tech from a position of abject passivity and conformity.

Just my 2p's worth.

Regards

Richard.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Ha ha, older generation and ‘puters! I am a member of a group which has over 200 members (250 maximum). Only about 40 (maybe a few more) take their monthly newsletter by email.

The club is so biased against the new technology that those that take the email newsletters are only allowed a £4 reduction in annual subscriptions – so are effectively subsidising the majority who insist on receiving 11 extra mailings per annum.

Think here paper, printing, envelopes, labels and stamps – let alone the time spent folding and stuffing envelopes, etc, compared with the pressing of one ‘send’ instruction on the computer seems to be worth only 36p each month. The newsletters are keyed-in by volunteers who do not receive any remuneration for their efforts.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 25/05/2018 17:52:29

• In 1990 17% of UK households owned a computer – that's a lot. Today's 60 year old would have been aged 32 and could have been keen on games etc even if he didn't want to be a computer programmer.

As you say that does seem a lot, I wonder if that includes game consoles which had quite a following by that time? Being a 61 year old who had free access to PCs at work the pressure to buy a PC came from my children reaching the age to need a PC at home and me getting fed up of doing jobs for my wife on the PC. The arrival of freeserve and a friend giving me a modem had us on the net before most people I know. The decision on whether to build or buy ready made occupied me for a while but the savings from building didn't seem worth the trouble. £1500 pounds lighter after a visit to Evesham for a PC and printer saw us with a home PC. It seemed for a while that whenever you jumped in your machine was almost immediately obsolete but now most hardware seems well able to cope with the main tasks we need from a PC unless you are a gamer.

Mike

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Computer technology continues to make all sorts of tasks easier as well as all sorts of things possible that weren't possible before. But there is a downside, which is the loss of hand skills and the products of those skills. In the craft of bookbinding, which I'm familiar with, there are very few people left who can competently tool a book by hand using gold leaf, and no binding machine has yet been invented or ever will that can produce work that can compete aesthetically with a skilfully hand-tooled book. This is not just my opinion but something that every custodian or historian of bookbindings who's ever expressed an opinion on the subject acknowledges to be the case. Foil blocking machines are in nearly every craft bindery today, and the ability even to letter a book competently by hand (a skill that takes a long time to develop) is now almost extinct. Old and often valuable books that get re-bound today are typically the poorer for the loss of these skills.

If engineering moves increasingly towards CNC production, will the hobbyists or professionals of the future still be able to competently saw, file, grind, drill, tap, measure, and most importantly see and judge things without the aid of machinery? Won't the loss of such skills, whether partial or complete, be the very reverse of progress in more than one respect?

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Bill P, was it a loss to the skill set to learn how to mill a cube rather than file it? I'd contend the answer is no, filing a cube is one of the most stupid requirements that an apprentice is set. There are vastly better ways of doing it, so don't waste anybody's time – instructor's or student's – on such a futile task.

Is is a loss to hand skills that an apprentice no longer makes a bronze axe head? Nope, outdated skills need to be replaced with relavent ones in context.

The same will come with CNC. As every technology appears its horizons become wider and more things can be done, not less. It's creativity that's the important skill, not whether you can handle a file.

Regards

Richard.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The thing that frightens me is that so many younger folk seem to have few, if any, practical skills, or understanding of anything that does not come vacuum packed off a supermarket shelf, or is not powered by rechargable batteries.

When the latest technology fails, because vehicle has demolished the local power pylon, no one knows what a hand brace or breast drill are for. You begin to sympathise with the Survivalists in the US

Not that I'd be much use as a hunter gatherer.

Keep the traditional skills alive, they may be needed one day! (If we survive the electromagnetic pulse liberated by some mad politician).

Howard

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I feel it is a tragedy that skills are lost but I am also sure that they can be relearned even if there is no one left to teach them. I have learned much from reading and with a resource like you tube many things can be demonstrated . Perhaps it should be important to record skills in action to give anyone a head start who wishes to restart a lost skill.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 25/05/2018 21:27:37:

The thing that frightens me is that so many younger folk seem to have few, if any, practical skills, or understanding of anything that does not come vacuum packed off a supermarket shelf, or is not powered by rechargable batteries.

…

Howard

I think it's a matter of perspective Howard, young people have skills, they're just different. Skills change over time. If a time machine took us back to 1918 I reckon we would be well out our depths due to missing skills. Do you know how to send telegrams, read a Bradshaw or use an open razor? Competent handling horses, hard collars, night soil etiquette, and haggling in a market? Could any of us get a low-paid job as a tailor, stoker, footman, seaman, cabbie or iron-moulder? How many could prove they had a basic education by reciting in order the names of all the bays, capes, rivers and sea-ports around the British coastline? Or quote knowledgeably from the Ingoldsby Legends? How good is your Greek and Latin? Do you know how to recognise the aristocracy and all the other social layers and know how to behave? How about buying food that's far from fresh? And the vital significance of hats? If you got a job as a turner, how good are you with a steam driven belt line system, carbon steel tooling and mixing your own suds? I think the experience might end badly because we are so uselessly weird by their standards.

Even worse if the time machine cocked up the return journey and delivered us by accident to 2118. Goodness only knows what skills will be needed to survive in the future.

Dave

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

You should always be prepared for a zombie apocalypse

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I've seen workshops featured in the magazine that famously refuse to use anything developed after 1940 in their workshop, and I think it's fascinating, and frankly, good for them.

I don't however, i'm quite happy to embrace anything from cnc to stereolithography. I kind of just go with "what works" rather than excluding things, but I still think it's cool when I see other workshops that take a different approach.

Tradition and modernity side by side is the real future. Why choose one when you can have both?

Michael W

[Author]

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