Apprentice Piece – Turning

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Maybe I was taught the hand fitting aspect the hard way. Large piece of steel that it took 3 months 8 hours a day to turn into a rather smaller perfect cube, squared up and blued on all sides. End result reasonably capable of using a file. Then a thick square within a square followed by some complex template fitting work. Later on advanced bench and yet more file work. I suspect it's only possible to give pointers about aspects of file work that can make it easier to do. There was also some sheet metal work that involved filing to height gauge scribed lines leaving slight signs of the line. Might be easier. Sheet metal work to circa a thou. For an entire 3 draw toolbox.

One thing I made at school early on which involved turning and hand work that could be done on a mill was a draw filing clamp for thin work. The screws were cross drilled and fitted with a bit of rod for tightening. It and some other bits and pieces were in the boot of my car and was nicked. The screwdriver I made during training too. Hollow handle, turned bored and knurled on a lathe. Square shaft with forged hardened blade ebd and the end turned down to fit the handle which was notched on the mill to suit the blade's square section and prevent it from rotating, A thing of the past for when slotted screws were used a lot on tooling. The square part of the blade could be driven with a spanner but the whole thing then really needs heat treatment.

The other thing I made at school was this style of gate latch along with the catch plate for the other side of the gate. Riviting, forging and none critical file work plus oil blacking. Several afternoon sessions. It outlasted several gates and was still in use 40 odd years later.

Made from 1/8" thick steel all nicely chamfered and the pivot block filed and sawn out. My dad was really pleased with it.

I junior school I made my mum and embroidered clothes peg bag.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 13/10/2016 14:51:38

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

So far the only thing I've made that's really impressed my family was a tool to remove pins from a metal-link wrist-watch strap.

Whilst they were bewailing the need to take a new watch to a jeweller I slipped out to my lathe and turned a simple 1mm ø punch on a length of 6mm diameter silver steel. After a few minutes whirring in the garage I returned and fixed the strap.

What hit the spot was me being able to solve a problem they understood by making something practical. Until then they thought I was mad to own a lathe because most stuff they want can be bought on ebay.

For a moment my workshop interests became almost respectable. It didn't last…

Dave

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I was thinking along the line that schools are no longer what they were. Also from talking to a colleague at work wondering if they still teach horticulture instead in Devon. As a result he was having nightmares concerning servicing his car to reduce costs. Even concerned about using a spanner.

John

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[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

I'm still struggling with who these people are that you are proposing to train. Are they budding model engineers who want to join a club and make a live steam model? Or are they people who want to re-train as machinists? Why do they need to learn how to use a lathe and milling machine? Are they motivated, or are they doing this because someone has said they must? Is this taking place in a school or college where there are decent facilities such as benches and white-boards?

You say you want to restrict the time to 2 hours for everyone's sanity – I would think that such a time limit would have exactly the opposite effect. You are not addressing the many practical problems that will arise from this – while one of the group is getting 1:1 attention, what are the other 6-9 people in the group doing? If the instructor is demonstrating how to operate the lathe how many of the group are going to be able to actually see what he is doing, while they are all gathered round this tiny little lathe? How many of them will be able to read the drawing of the plumb-Bob /screwdriver /machinist jack with their art /craft/ electronics background? How many will even know what 0.05 of a mm is, let alone use a micrometer? What's the plan when a student drives the tool post into the chuck and takes your lathe out of commission?

If you've already experienced problems with knowledge retention, wait until you've tried e-learning – it is extremely difficult to design an e-learning package that works successfully, particularly for practical subjects where you really need to be standing in front of a bench or a machine for the lesson to have any relevance.

Meanwhile, in the real world, I too made a screwdriver as my first machining project at school, similar to the previous poster, but with a hexagonal duralumin handle and the blade from 5/16" silver steel which we hardened and tempered. I remember it well, partly because the teacher was actually my father (much as I hated going to the school he taught at, thankfully he was respected by the kids as a good teacher). It took us half a term, or seven weeks, which equates to 14 hours. There were 15 in the class, and the workshop had five lathes and two brazing torch stations, and of course we all had an individual bench space with a vice and hand tools. I can't think of a simpler first project that encompasses the range of skills you mention and fulfills the requirement to produce something useful, and it took seven times longer than the time you are proposing.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I suspect it may be a man shed Steve. They are slowly cropping up all over the place. It's just a pity that schools don't teach craft skills any more which will make things more difficult for many people. Some areas of the country never have.

Craft skills these days is usually pottery.

John

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[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

Engineering skills at home and the ability to make things is not the sole domain of the model engineer others out there would also like theses skills for there hobbies just look at the non loco subjects on this site.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I think we should trust Joshua to know his own requirement, and not put him off him with high-end negatives. He's not setting up an Apprentice Training Scheme!

The more people who get to see what a lathe can do through his good offices the better. Two hours with a good instructor should be sufficient to get a good feel for the tool.

After that it's a whole new ball game. People can take it up or not as they please.

I think quite a few Model Engineers are self-taught. Not the best way to learn I think, but I'm enjoying it.

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Cheaper to make the piece whatever it is out of plastic, also safer for the tools.
Would any of these people use a 'whatever tool' that has been suggested?

Equally pointless but easy is a 'phone touchpad stylus' as fancy as you like out of plastic, thick enough to be bored out and fit a commercial tube cap. Those who have no earthly use for it can give it to a child, grandchild, as a 'look what grandpa made you'.

Will the course include training on Linuxcnc Axis

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm not sure where people get the idea of of 'groups'. To me it reads as though a number of different volunteers want to give the same 1:1 training to about 40 people.

Two hours should be Ok if they are bright and interested.

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/10/2016 19:01:55:

I'm not sure where people get the idea of of 'groups'. To me it reads as though a number of different volunteers want to give the same 1:1 training to about 40 people.

Two hours should be Ok if they are bright and interested.

Neil

It could be that the groups would be quicker to get through whereas 4 or 5 people delivering 1to1s might make a bit of a waiting list. Say they did 1 a week, with 5 volunteers giving 1to1s the last guys got a 2 month wait.

This sounds quite popular if 40 is a pretty small taking for them, on the other hand it could be considered quite reasonable if that was the maximum. So long as they could occupy "the last guy" with other stuff to learn in that time frame it would be alright. This all depends on how literally taken the 1to1 approach is of course. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 13/10/2016 20:08:50

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

Maybe they got that idea from the OP's two posts. If he had said from the outset that he was going to teach one bloke at a time he might have got some different answers. He may also have got some different answers if he had said it was all informal – a mate teaching a mate – rather than mentioning things like e-learning, inductees and classroom sessions, which gives the impression of an altogether more formal setting. I asked the question earlier whether they would have one lathe each, which sort of alludes to whether the proposal was for a group or individual teaching but it wasn't addressed.

I'm pretty sure that I could show one person how to use my lathe fairly safely in two hours. I'm equally sure that they will not have produced much of any value in that time.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

This is beginning to sound like another M8 thread.

Personally I feel it pays to assume some intelligence from OP's and that they do have an inkling about what they are doing. There is no point in making judgements on 40 lathes forty people all in one go or anything like that. The OP will probably just disappear.

All he wanted was ideas about what such people could make in a short period of time.

If he wants to teach 40 people in one go on a lathe which by modern standards is unsafe that's his problem not ours. They aren't anyway. It's also highly unlikely that he would even contemplate 40 anyway. After all if he is one of the teachers it stands a fair chance that he will have some idea of what he is about.

Time spent and waiting time – no doubt that will have already figured in his thoughts.

John

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[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Thanks to everyone who has come forward with suggestions, I really appreciate it. The screwdriver is perhaps the most promising thus far.

Secondly as it seems to be of great importance that I explain this further, some more background, I’ve been involuntarily volunteered to organise the sessions because the chap doing it previously is project managing an extension to our facilities (and we’re all volunteers) and as a result of that simply hasn’t been able to do them for a while hence backing up to 40 and needing to recruit additional bodies, as we’re overwhelmed; this isn’t something I’m particularly relishing doing, but it’s very much necessary and ideally should end up as a self-sustaining process.

The people wishing to learn/get inducted are all have all requested an induction because they want to use a lathe, for myriad reasons from repairing model diesel engines to modifying solenoid valves for gas-puffer fire-art installations…

There’s no unifying background other than a desire to make, it doesn’t matter to the organisation, nor to Me what they want to do with it, so long as they do it safely and with an understanding of the limitations of machine.

The reason for using a Myford is simple, that’s the lathe they will have access to for the next 6-12 months, until the extension is complete allowing us to start using the Warco, and possibly sell the Myford… I’m a bit vexed by the insistence of some posters that a Super 7 is unsafe, the basic Myford design is not PUWER98 compliant without upgrading with a modern NVR equipped DOL Starter and Interlocks on the guards… But that’s rather distinct from being inherently unsafe.

It is being organised along formal lines, in that we’re a large organisation (490+ members, if anyone would like to know specifics, PM me), and have identified that we need to ensure that users of machine tools are at a minimum standard of competence and that we have a record of the same; a big driver for the formalisation is that we need to develop a process for induction which will standalone without the support of its creators.

John thanks for saying that, as you mention it, it is rather tempting to just disappear as the forum is not coming across as particularly welcoming or ‘Can-Do’ in this instance… That would be somewhat rash though.

[Dinosaur EngineerParticipant @dinosaurengineer]

What happened to the metalwork & eng. drawing classes at schools ? . All the workshop equipt. sold and only now is it realised that that the previous classes were needed. How to solder a resistor or glue a piece of wood/plastic is no basis for basic engineering appreciation/skills. How did we allow this change to take place ? There should have been a major protest from Engrg co.s.

Edited By Dinosaur Engineer on 14/10/2016 03:29:14

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Dinosaur Engineer on 14/10/2016 03:27:25:

What happened to the metalwork & eng. drawing classes at schools ? . All the workshop equipt. sold and only now is it realised that that the previous classes were needed. How to solder a resistor or glue a piece of wood/plastic is no basis for basic engineering appreciation/skills. How did we allow this change to take place ? There should have been a major protest from Engrg co.s.

Sadly the needs of employers drive what courses are available these days, the needs of hobbyists, makers, DIYers and the curious are not a 'priority' or target.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The Myford as standard has no chuck guard or leadscrew cover, not just electrically. Your Warco is equiped with both of these items.

[Perko7Participant @perko7]

If the aim of the induction, as stated in the original post, was 'only required to teach safe practice, and normal operation' then i don't expect they would need to do a great variety of operations. It should probably focus on setting up, safety in use, and purpose of the different components. Speeds & feeds, behaviour of different materials, thread cutting and other more advanced operations would not be expected. I remember my first tentative use of a lathe, and was more than chuffed not to break anything, including myself, when turning a simple shouldered pin for a pivot joint in something i was making. That alone took nearly an hour. I think the best you could expect someone to make is something like the plumb bob already suggested. It could double as a paperweight, a punch, or maybe even a conker .

Anything more complex would not only take much longer to make but would also take much longer to describe and instruct.

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

well, first off I apologise if I got the wrong idea, but your first two posts made it sound like some sort of official government sponsored employment training scheme, with all the H and S requirements that go with it. I've had a bit to do with such courses and they are a nightmare of bureaucracy and hoop jumping. By way of an apology I offer the following suggestion for you to take up or reject as you wish –

If they are also going to do some milling maybe a little screw jack might be a bit more useful, as it includes some thread cutting – it is very useful to know how to use taps and dies with the lathe to keep everything square. I would choose aluminium for beginners as it is fairly easy to get a good finish and maybe a bit easier on the tools, but mild steel would do just as well.

steel

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

My take on this is that the student should be shown how to stop and start the Lathe. Then how the chuck operates.

Then given a piece of half inch MS and allowed to face of the end safely near the chuck face. then, drill a center hole and project it from the chuck to a center in the tail stock. From there go on to turn the shank to a diameter, once it is done, turn the piece end for end and then face off and center that end and set up and turn the remainder to diameter.

Apart from some detail about cutting tools and setting to center height this would give basic introduction to lather work, dont ask me what to do with the finished bar?

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 14/10/2016 07:38:16:

Posted by Dinosaur Engineer on 14/10/2016 03:27:25:

What happened to the metalwork & eng. drawing classes at schools ? . All the workshop equipt. sold and only now is it realised that that the previous classes were needed. How to solder a resistor or glue a piece of wood/plastic is no basis for basic engineering appreciation/skills. How did we allow this change to take place ? There should have been a major protest from Engrg co.s.

Sadly the needs of employers drive what courses are available these days, the needs of hobbyists, makers, DIYers and the curious are not a 'priority' or target.

Neil

There is a need for people who can "drive" machines Neil. Not so much as there was but it's still about. One thing that is noticeable when seen, TV and odd places I have been in is that it tends to be done by what might be called older people. No youngsters.

Personally I think craft skills such as metal work and wood work are good for people. A challenge the majority can meet. Art isn't so simple. The disturbing aspect about society especially in the UK is the willingness to concentrate on the why nots rather than the why's.

The main reason it has "gone" is profit, the so called bottom line. It can currently be done cheaper elsewhere. I'm mentioned before that a USA arm of a company I worked for decided to have a tool made in China as it was cheaper. Complex pressure casting tooling. Taking all costs into account it represented a saving of less than 10%. In terms of the total cost of the project a drop in the ocean but more on the bottom line.

I've mentioned that before maybe elsewhere and people don't believe it. However I have seen the figures. The bottom line rules all these days. Go back in time and GKN moved out of the UK for minimal savings on the nuts and bolts they make even at the million off level. Very marginal savings but they still did it.

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I think I would drop boring out of the initial induction training. You simply will not get that far in the allotted one or two hours and it is a fiddly, more intermediate level skill. Centre drilling and drilling should do for a beginner orientation session. Same with parting being too advanced and too time consuming for initial session. No need to instill terror in the first session.

I would stick with plain turning, facing, different diameters, turning up to a shoulder, centre drilling and drilling as exercises on bits of disposable round bar.

Then if you want them to make a memento keepsake, give them a pre-cut to length piece of hex bar and have them make a basic centre punch. Turn one end of it round for a length of about half and inch and face the end. Then turn hex bar around and on the other end, turn the long taper by setting topslide to pre-determined angle, get fine finish cut on there, emery paper finish, then reset top slide and put put the 90 degree angle on the end.

Something like that might be doable, just, in two hours.

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by JasonB on 14/10/2016 07:59:12:

The Myford as standard has no chuck guard or leadscrew cover

Safe practice is safe practice and works with or without guards, idiots are idiots and will stick parts of themselves into moving work whatever you try to put in their way.

 

Plastic is an excellent idea for an introduction, my first project at school was a screwdriver, we had to make the plastic handle first. 

 

 – Nick

Edited By Nick Hulme on 14/10/2016 12:31:22

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Hopper on 14/10/2016 11:15:01:

Then if you want them to make a memento keepsake, give them a pre-cut to length piece of hex bar and have them make a basic centre punch. Turn one end of it round for a length of about half and inch and face the end. Then turn hex bar around and on the other end, turn the long taper by setting topslide to pre-determined angle, get fine finish cut on there, emery paper finish

With you all the way there until the emery paper finish

It's not something you really want anyone new to machine tools to do and some would argue it should be totally off limits regardless of experience.

It's that long ago I can't really recall what my very first piece of lathework was and neither the make of machine we had at school. I know the O level metalwork was a folded sheet steel scribing gauge and had knurling, grooving and tapping on an adjusting nut, maybe in aluminium.

[Stephen BensonParticipant @stephenbenson75261]

In the back of the book "Screwcutting by Dr Marcus Bowmam " from Camden books is a spinning top design (a picture of it is on the cover) which you could adapt to be as complicated or as simple as you like, it uses a ball bearing as the spinning point has lots of screwcutting and knurling but it could be simplified to something you could make in 2 hours

Edited By Stephen Benson on 14/10/2016 14:48:24

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ajohnw on 14/10/2016 10:09:42:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 14/10/2016 07:38:16:

Posted by Dinosaur Engineer on 14/10/2016 03:27:25:

What happened to the metalwork & eng. drawing classes at schools ? . All the workshop equipt. sold and only now is it realised that that the previous classes were needed. How to solder a resistor or glue a piece of wood/plastic is no basis for basic engineering appreciation/skills. How did we allow this change to take place ? There should have been a major protest from Engrg co.s.

Sadly the needs of employers drive what courses are available these days, the needs of hobbyists, makers, DIYers and the curious are not a 'priority' or target.

Neil

There is a need for people who can "drive" machines Neil. Not so much as there was but it's still about. One thing that is noticeable when seen, TV and odd places I have been in is that it tends to be done by what might be called older people. No youngsters.

I won't argue that these are good generic skills, but these days most machine shop equipment is so application/company specific that the big companies would rather do all the training in-house for their own apprentices rather than get a supply from a tech school.Perhaps it has always been like that for the big companies, but these days there aren't enough smaller jobbing engineers shops with openings for general machinists to justify the investment by colleges. They can always find students jobs for hair & beauty, horse husbandry and plastering, so that's what gets taught.

That said, I know Polly Engineering have a bright young chap who is doing very well as an apprentice with them (MEW 232 and he was at MEX) and I'm sure there are many others at small firms across the UK.

Neil

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