Anyone got this machine? (axminster SU1 universal mill)

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-engineer-series-su1-universal-mill-505104?gclid=COOfksurrMkCFacewwodOBUCbQ

I looked at this mill because it looks like quite an attractive bench-top machine, the only one i've seen that allows you to use it as a horizontal machine, which is the main draw.

I believe its actual name is SIEG SU1 but axminster sell it as their own version.

Is it any good and would anyone consider selling it second hand? then again if its that good youll want to keep it i guess, duh 😛

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

just want to know if anyone owns it and if its any good

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think the biggest problem or should it be smallest is the 150mm spindle to table distance. Once you have got a vice and collet chuck in there it does not leave much room for the work and tooling.

Something like a Sixis 101 is a better quality and more versatile version where the head can be configured for horizontal and vertical. They do occasionally come up second hand but at a price

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Yeah i definitely wouldnt want it as a vertical mill, it would be really annoying.

the sixis one oh one certainly looks the business for horizontal milling, the width of the T-slotted table is splendid and spindle distance is far greater  i guess its just a bit of a rarity to actually find one for sale.

Edited By Michael Walters on 25/11/2015 21:06:10

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Perhaps this would be a better, cheaper alternative for a single speed pinion operation, plus all the experience you would gain from making this hemingway pinion mill? ive got a fair few old motors lying around and would be ready to hook one up?

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Trent_Pinion_Mill.html

The trent pinion mill

[Anonymous]

Interesting to see a horizontal capability in such a small mill. My concern would be whether it has the rigidity and power to actually make use of horizontal cutters. The lowest speed of 200rpm is rather high for a horizontal mill using larger diameter cutters than those normally used on a vertical mill. The other issue is electronic speed control; never mind the torque, what is the power available at 200rpm.

As an aside the description is incorrect, it is not a universal mill. A universal mill is a horizontal mill where the table swivels allowing milling of helical gears and spiral features, in conjunction with a universal dividing head.

Andrew

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

If what you actually want to do is make pinions then think about how close your lathe is (or another old lathe) to the Hemingway machine.

Otherwise I would put half the money into a new shed and get a serious horizontal – you can probably get a 1.5 ton Elliot U2 for a few hundred and plenty of smaller ones also on ebay.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bazyle on 25/11/2015 21:48:14:

…………… and get a serious horizontal – you can probably get a 1.5 ton Elliot U2 for a few hundred and plenty of smaller ones also on ebay.

+1

Like this mill:

Weighs 3500lbs, 5hp motor, is a true universal and cost £145, plus VAT of course! For scale the gear is 5DP and 14.8" OD.

Andrew

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I dont think this is very helpful or realistic for my purposes

[IanTParticipant @iant]

There are other small horizontal machines around Michael (if you are looking out for them).

I have an Atlas MFC 'bench-top' milling machine which is a very robust "little" (300lb) machine. I already had an Atlas Shaper (which I felt was very well made) and was therefore tempted to get the matching miller. The MFC is also well made and mine wasn't very expensive (somewhat less than a new X1 Sieg vertical mill) and it came with a vertical milling head, a good quality vice, milling chuck & tooling. The machine details are here on Lathes.co.uk

**LINK**

The usual caveats apply when buying any old machine tool of course

Mine has considerable backlash in the feed-screws, which need replacing. I will also replace the existing vertical head set-up with (most probably) a Taig milling head with it's own motor drive. I've already built a similar attachment for my lathes. This head will be faster (for smaller cutters) than the existing vertical head which is belt driven from the horizontal spindle. The rest of the machine is generally pretty good but it will (eventually) get stripped, cleaned and repainted. Any slide/bearing wear will be attended to at that time, although the main bearings seem OK and the "Change-O-Matic/table feeds all work well. There is a very simple motor 'clutch' that I find very convenient. All in all – a very robust small machine that I will improve and add to over time. A keeper.

As a general comment on horizontals – I already had a larger (Victoria HO) horizontal mill and I will admit to liking them. With a vertical head fitted, I get most of the advantages usually normally associated with the vertical mill but with the added utility of the horizontal arbour. 'Knee-type' mills tend to be very substantial machines. Whilst I don't have (drilling) 'quills' on either of my existing vertical heads I may look at this with any new Taig-type head. I currently drill and mill directly from the horizontal arbour (think of the milling table as a very long and very rigid & substantial (and powered) 'vertical slide' (as used on the lathe) which is very useful and not nearly as inconvenient to use as is sometimes suggested.

So there are older small horizontal mills available out there Michael but they will most likely need some TLC – most old machines do. As I like generally messing with my machines (and making parts & accessories for them) I don't find this a great problem – especially if I find a bargain. As I've said before though, older machines are not for everyone and a new machine tool is the easier/simpler solution if you can afford it.

Regards,

IanT

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

The table looks like it's straight off the X2-style mill which isn't encouraging.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by John Haine on 26/11/2015 11:15:06:

The table looks like it's straight off the X2-style mill which isn't encouraging.

.

Rather a sweeping statement ? Just out of interest what do you base that observation on ?

Tables on machines this size must be similar to others ?

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

May give you a better nosey at it.

Nick

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I have looked at the Atlas MFC bench top, Ian, i must say its rather impressive, and congratulate you on such a lucky find, i don't believe ones of this quality, would come up very often and would be highly sought after, it certainly has a robust feel like you said and bears the hallmarks of quality (even using bronze pinions and feed nuts). Speaking of which, i think you can cut a deep groove in a sensible spot in the feed nut and drill/tap a hole across the slot. Using a suitable countersunk socket screw, you can apply force across the slot by tightening the screw which will tighten the pitch or peaks and troughs of the screw thread and adjust for the wear of the feed screw and improve the fit, which has been probably twisting round for years. This is a well known practice and i think it would save you alot of work making a new acme left hander. maybe its worn beyond salvation but just an idea.

The reduction gear box is just the cherry on the cake really and for this reason i think it would be bidded for ferociously online! I wouldn't part with it either if i were you even if there is some cosmetics involved.

I also watched the helpful video of the SU-1 and i think its primarily cast iron construction and nifty design features and ability to switch from vertical to horizontal are certainly a boon, the milling vice hes using on there look taller than my ones so i think i would have a reasonable amount of room for milling space, if i want to mill a cannon barrel then unfortunately its not going to be big enough, it never was going to be because its not made to cope with this. I want parts of a reasonable "hand held" size, not exactly miniature, but then not big enough to construct the iron work of the eiffel tower.

I personally have no problem with the table, it looks fine, so long as the gibs and dimensions of it are in good order and theres enough room to put a medium sized vice on there.

I think i like it, but £1k is a little steep, the axminster premium i guess, i would buy a used one, i just know a machine like this would greatly improve the capabilities at my disposal regardless of the manufacturer. horizontal mills are underrated, i decry! haha

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I agree John, it's probably not as convenient as having multiple T-slots. It does initially limit the kind of accessories that you can use, if only in terms of the mounting holes available on them. I guess most machines have their pros and cons.

However, it's not been so much of a problem in practice. I've managed to adapt some of my existing accessories and will make new custom ones over time. To some extent this is required for any new machine but potentially more so on old 'new' machines, especially where the original accessories are no longer available.

As I stated earlier, I enjoy this aspect of owning older machines and it usually just requires some thought to use/adapt existing accessories. Several of my small vices now mount on the MF, either directly or via a mounting plate. They are used to hold my collet blocks & other small jigs. I have several sub-tables (originally made for use on my Super 7) and these were easily modified to fit the Atlas. They make some set-ups much easier when done off the machine and help to avoid damage to small T-slots. I like accessories that can be moved between my machines, as I feel that I'm getting more utility/value for the time I've invested

Some things will be machine specific though. I've a "clamp-block" design ( for the Atlas by Rudy Kouhoupt ) that looks to be a fairly simple project for the Shaper, although a custom saw table (& clamping device) for sheet metal may well take priority. A slitting saw mounted in the horizontal mill will cut larger sheet material accurately and it's a useful facility for any modeller to have. It will replace the (temporary) wooden table I've used thus far.

On balance, the MF is a very solidly built machine for its size, has a good speed range (including back gear) and a powered table. These are qualities and features that are not that common these days. Mine does need work but it started out a well-made machine and it should be possible to return it to a similar condition with a bit of effort. For my particular needs, I find this machine is a very useful addition to my workshop.

In terms of "modern" machine tools (of this style & size) the SU1 is probably the nearest (only?) one available currently and I did take a closer look at one a year or two back. I thought it was an interesting machine but (for the same money) I also felt most users would be better off with a more conventional vertical mill.

Which brings us back to Michaels original query. Is the SU1 any good? I think the SU1 is a potentially versatile small machine (albeit an expensive one) that does offer some unique features. So, the question of whether the SU1 is any good probably depends on whether you need those unique features – and in this case what Michael needs (or wants) it for? Some of the issues raised earlier may not be problems in practice for some applications. There may be a very good reason(s) why Michael wants a horizontal capability (although he doesn't mention them). I've touched on one useful aspect of my machine (for cutting sheet metal) but there are others.

As a more general comment – we often see questions on the Forum about the suitability of 'this or that' tool, which cannot really be answered without some context about their intended use. Some of the feedback given can frankly be pretty meaningless without knowing what the actual work requirement is. The tools needed to build 1/2 scale traction engines do tend to be somewhat different from those required to repair clocks for instance.

That little Adept may be just a paper weight to some or a useful small lathe to others…

Regards,

IanT

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Sorry – I type with two fingers and it takes a while – so others have posted in-between…

JS – I assumed John H was referring to the single T-lot of the MF table, which is why I was rabbiting on about the workarounds. If you look closely, you can probably see that it has two parallel 'V' grooves that are a simple but effective way to mount some round parts on the table. I guess it was probably a cost-reduction exercise but I prefer to think that it helps to make the table a bit stronger too…

Michael – I did consider pinching the existing feed nuts but felt there wasn't enough meat on them to get a good pinch screw through – and the design seems to preclude brazing on extra clamping pieces. A well known ME supplier offers ACME taps at a price I can probably bring myself to afford – so this is the current plan.

Regards,

IanT

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The Centec 2A is a benchtop machine although the pictures make it look bigger. Proper industrial mini horizontal, some around are even universals. Generally under £500 because people want it's big brother the 2B plus vertical head.

Also a Centec will retain its value which the SU is unlikely to. They are 3 or 4 times more common on ebay than Atlas.

Pools and Denbigh are a couple more names to evaluate.

I've never seen a SU1 on ebay as I guess it is too new so you would be unlikely to find a used one. Actually very little Axminster stuff comes up.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

It's just for small scale pinion cutting, Ian, and the occasional keyway, although you can achieve this to a reasonable quality with an end mill if you dont try to cut too much away in one go(whereas you could do one pass with a horizontal with the reduced loads and greater chip clearance) and with an angle plate and suitable arbor you can also cut gears i suppose, i guess where i've faced difficult setups like that i've reasoned that trying too hard to achieve this with a vertical means you havent got the right machine for the right job 😛

The crux of it is the cost is too high, like other members have pointed out, being the right person in the right time can mean you get a machine at twice the bargain. I guess my ability to work around the problem for now means i dont exactly need this.

Nonetheless, does go to show how rare brand new benchtop horizontals are, isnt much of a market and is probably why axminster can get away with charging so much for it, because theres no way it would stand up to that price as a vertical even with the more accurate knee elevation.

an interesting topic and a potential gap in the market for machines.

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 27/11/2015 01:19:40

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Michael:

Notes:

1) I'd love the "SU1" horizontal to turn it into a CNC chucker lathe. Lots of room on that table for tool stations.

2) I watched one of the videos a while ago, and, if you look closely, in vertical head mode, they machine a chamfer because there's not enough vertical headroom! (not sure which video it is, but *one* of them shows this)

3) I have a Centec 2B with vertical head and horizontal overarm. I have used the overarm all of once – and I love horizontal machines – but love and practicality for my model making don't always go hand in hand.

(Centec machines are wonderful, and, IMHO much better than the Atlas horizontals that I've seen)

John.

[Bill MullParticipant @billmull]

Is the SU 1 only available from Axminster?

[IanTParticipant @iant]

As far as I'm aware Liam – yes.

There are of course other Sieg stockists but none of them offer it.

Regards,

IanT

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Well, there is Grizzly in the USA – the g0727 or something like that. (It may be the U1 or something close – IIRC there are two models, one with a brushless motor.

No, it's not a convenient supplier for me, either!

(I think I saw a supplier in Germany, too, a while ago)

John.

[Bill MullParticipant @billmull]

Yeah there’s optimum in Germany but I remember another company based in Germany supplying similar machines they were a yellow colour but I can’t think of the name.

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