Any Old Gun Experts out there?

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All,

Today's early morning haul included this at the bottom of a crate of nice tools:

Main part is 5" long, there is what looks like a threaded section at the top then an arm with a double worm one end and screwdriver tip at the other.

The spike sits in a nice recess on the shaft and pulls out for use.

There is a square recess in the end a bit like a clock key?

Is it some kind of tool for an old pistol or other gun?

Cheers, Martin

Cheers, Martin

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

I'm no expert, but it does look like a pistol tool – ball-puller, touch-hole pricker, turnscrew.. ..the square socket could conceivably be for a wheellock.. ..they did make wheellock pistols for self-protection so could be quite short, but still firing a biggish ball..

..worth getting it checked out..

Edited By DiogenesII on 06/11/2021 13:50:19

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Strange item, the two pronged thing looks very like I have on the rear end of a ramrod on one of my old guns, it's used to pull out a lead ball or wadding from a gun barrel in the event of a failure to fire, it's far too short though and looks too crude for small pocket pistols

Again, the spike looks like a tool to clear the touch hole on a muzzle loader but maybe it's nothing to do with guns. If you get no identification I can put it on another group who will identify it for sure

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

There's a picture of a more recent M/L tool here;

Unknown muzzle loading pistol tool

..similar range of tooling, slightly different arrangement, this one looks mass produced, yours looks older & handmade.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Looks more like a canon touch hole un-blocking tool.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by DiogenesII on 06/11/2021 13:49:57:

Ithe square socket could conceivably be for a wheellock.. ..they did make wheellock pistols for self-protection so could be quite short, but still firing a biggish ball..

Edited By DiogenesII on 06/11/2021 13:50:19

—————–

Far too crude for that I think, wheellocks were extremely expensive and beyond the capabilities of the local blacksmith, the bore of pistols was often 1/2" or less and the tools that came with them were also finely made, sometimes ornamented as well. I posted my wheellock pistol on here a few weeks back

[David JennerParticipant @davidjenner61726]

The spike is for clearing the touch hole possibly for a flintlock, but could be for percussion.

The other attachment is to extraxt either a stuck lead ball or the wadding.

The screwdriver needs no explanation!

The square recess is possibly to remove the flint, but some early percussion nipples may have a square to allow removal from the action.

It is not uncommon to have gun multi tools, saves stuff going missing in the field.

One old pistol I had was completly strippable using the tools incorporated in its design.

Pressing a sprung button allowed the cylinder pivot to be removed which had a srewdriver to remove the grips. Once these were removed, a lever was rotated to release the hammer mainspring, thus allowing te remaining components to be disassembled.

Soldiers loose tools in battle, so having it all built in makes good sense.

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Thanks to all for the help here!

Vic, by all means post elsewhere.

Diogenes, it certainly looks the same sort of tool

I saw similar, but MUCH larger worm things on my recent trip to HMS Victory.

What would the crude thread be for on the end?

Cheers, Martin

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Yes, it's a fairly common combination tool for a muzzle-loading weapon. As David Jenner says, there's a screwdriver, wad-puller (to use, it would be threaded onto the ramrod supplied with the gun, stored under the barrel), the square recess is indeed for removing a percussion nipple, and the spike for clearing the hole in said nipple (or the connecting hole to the breech once the nipple is removed. A similar type is shown below, which has an additional bullet puller (looks like a woodswcrew).

Rob

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All,

After a closer examination and the judicious use of gentle heat this tool came apart to reveal more tool ends!

There is also a very small makers mark showing an "E" over a CROWN over the numbers 38 ?

Also does the team think that the larger threaded bit is for a handle perhaps?

Cheers, Martin

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

The crown with E was the inspection marking for the Enfield Armoury. Not sure, but the 38 may refer to the year (1838) or may just be a reference number.

If by the threaded bit you mean the thread just behind the screwdriver bit (around the 8 o'clock postion in your photo), I don't think it has any use except as storage for the wad-puller (it screws on there with the pointy bits inwards so they don't catch on anything).

Rob

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi, I meant the threaded bit at about 1 o'clock in the photo.

Martin

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Ah, right – didn't see that as a thread. I don't know what that might be for, to be honest. Probably does have a use, though, along with the cross hole which most of them seem to have – no room in the military for pointless decoration

Rob

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Not read all the posts but the tool is similar to an 1850 Enfield .577 rifle military tool, this may well be a civilian model, lots of military replicas about made by Parker Hale of Birmingham same as the photo posted by Rob. The lug on the side of this one is to enable the very strong V spring to be removed or a new one inserted should the original break.

John

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Looks like the Enfield rifle tool to me, would it fit a .577" bore?

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Diameter of the worm boss is 0.560" so I guess .577 would be about right?

Martin

[RobinParticipant @robin]

There is a lovely Illustrated London News article on making the Enfield barrel from strips of Marshall's iron. The Time Team excavated Marshall's B'ham factory to reveal the super hot furnaces where he melted the crucible steel

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Robin on 08/11/2021 10:01:43:

There is a lovely Illustrated London News article on making the Enfield barrel from strips of Marshall's iron. The Time Team excavated Marshall's B'ham factory to reveal the super hot furnaces where he melted the crucible steel

.

Very interesting, thanks Robin … do you have a link [for the benefit of the idle] ?

MichaelG.

[RobinParticipant @robin]

I have snapped it with the jolly old Nikon and stuck it on my web thingy

http://www.robinhewitt.net/LIN.png

Hope it works

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Many thanks, Robin

MichaelG.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2021 11:21:21:

Many thanks, Robin

MichaelG.

+1 from me, too

The later .577s were well above that in groove diameter – difficult to measure owing to the 3-groove profile. My Snider Mk.III, probably from about 1870, was an actual .592", still with the 78" twist. But I think the process had probaby changed for the steel barrel models.

It used sights that appeared exactly similar to those described in the article – the description of their precision appears exaggerated when compared to modern open sights – I used to think they looked like the Great Pyramid viewed through a railway cutting.

Since almost any propellant burn would blow the bullet out of the Enfield barrel, it seems likely the unloading worm would only have been required when battle-stress caused the soldier to omit pouring the powder before loading the bullet. Anybody know if every soldier carried one of these tools, or would he have had to go to an NCO to get his rifle cleared – assuming he survived the action… >

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just to demonstrate my ignorance … I admit that had to look this up

**LINK**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minié_rifle

Every day is a school-day !

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mick B1 on 08/11/2021 16:28:42:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2021 11:21:21:

…

…

Since almost any propellant burn would blow the bullet out of the Enfield barrel, it seems likely the unloading worm would only have been required when battle-stress caused the soldier to omit pouring the powder before loading the bullet. Anybody know if every soldier carried one of these tools, or would he have had to go to an NCO to get his rifle cleared – assuming he survived the action… >

Before 1914 that clever chap 'Anon' described modern war as being 'Months of boredom punctuated by moments of extreme terror.' He was right, to the extent that many surviving military small-arms were never fired in anger. Or at all! But lots of loading and unloading go on.

I think the wad-clearer was much used in peacetime because it's often necessary for the military to unload guns without firing them. Dangerous for guns to be loaded when not needed, so steps were taken to make them safe. Men finishing guard duty, wet rifles, range misfires, double loading, drill, and stupidity all provide reasons for unloading guns. Even in war-time, guns are often loaded and not fired. Then powder has to be replaced in case it's got damp or compacted, and the gun unloaded to go into camp.

Long range sights were crude because individuals weren't targetted with them. Musketry was the art of firing as a group, usually at other groups, and under command. Soldiers were discouraged from firing at whatever took their fancy unless skirmishing. Long range sights allowed a commander to pepper remote area targets such as a crossroads or distant cluster of staff-officers. The tactic has been obsolete since the Boer War.

Dave

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Michael G, try Minie Ball.

Robert Butler

 

Edited By Robert Butler on 08/11/2021 18:19:29

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