Anti seize grease on Myford spindle nose?

[Bob Ely 2Participant @bobely2]

A recent article in MEW suggested using Rocol (or similar) copper based anti-seize grease on the spindle nose of a Myford S7 to reduce the likelihood of a chuck (or other attachment) becoming stuck. This seems a good idea (I've always used copper anti-seize grease on the wheel nuts of my car) but my question is as to whether there is any downside to using copper anti-seize grease on a Myford S7 spindle nose? For example, I could imagine that it might make it more difficult to clean the thread on the spindle nose and the chuck but others have suggested that anti-seize grease is no more retentive of swarf etc than the "fine oil" recommended for chuck fitting in the official Myford manual.

[Bob Ely 2Participant @bobely2]

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Anti-sieze products will help prevent corrosion-induced seizing and possibly 'cold welding', but I don't think either is a real concern on a well-cared for machine. Make sure the male and female threads are really clean, then lightly oil. However, I can't think why a smear of anti-sieze compound would hurt.

I, like most, I suspect, used to anoint wheel studs and nuts with grease or Copaslip. I was aware that torque figures for dry threads and lubricated threads are different, but assumed that the manufacturers specified the figure for lubricated threads. Perhaps they did. However, today's practice – stipulated by manufacturers – is to not lubricate wheel nuts, so the torque specified must be for dry threads. The idea is to minimize the risk of the nuts loosening spontaneously. The surface treatment (Zn?) must be far better than in the old days, because they never seem to seize.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

When I go to have a service on my caravan there is a specified torque which is checked with a torque wrench to show that the nuts are correctly tightened whilst I watch. The data in the spec for these bolts are dry not lubricated. When I replace my chuck on to the nose of my M Type Drummond/ Myford lathe I give it a wipe with a slightly oily cloth.

David

[Don CoxParticipant @doncox80133]

Adding to the slightly off topic content of this thread, I would suggest a better use of copper based grease on car wheels is to smear it lightly onto the spigot where the wheel centres onto the hub. This is particularly important with alloy wheels. I leave the wheel nuts clean and dry.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Just run your lathe backwards on the backgear by hand to unstick a chuck

I put a block of wood braced on the bed under a chuck jaw and voilla!

With a backgear lathe you never have a stuck chuck

I have put a bar in the oil hole of the pulley to give me more control

 

Edited By Ady1 on 07/04/2021 08:56:39

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

It used to be a Royal Navy standing order that all threaded lathe chucks had to have a brown paper ring between the backplate and the spindle shoulder…….

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bob Ely 2 on 07/04/2021 00:21:15:

… my question is as to whether there is any downside to using copper anti-seize grease on a Myford S7 spindle nose? … "fine oil" recommended for chuck fitting in the official Myford manual.

I see the stuck chuck problem in much the same light as water stop-cocks. Neglected for years on end they cause big trouble by seizing solid just when needed most urgently. A reasonable cure for stop-cocks is to keep them free by operating the tap once every six months or so to. I think the same would work for screw-on chucks: just loosen the chuck during regular routine maintenance and keep the thread clean and oiled. Don't expect a chuck put on tight in 1955 to unscrew without a fight.

Anti-seize is a 'good thing' when normally left alone fasteners have to be undone periodically. Wheel nuts are a candidate, and I guess car makers are against anti-seize compounds because their priority is not being sued because a wheel came off after the owner followed their maintenance instructions. As a car owner, my fear is being unable to change a wintery middle-of-nowhere puncture because the nuts are too tight!

As Myford were technically competent, I think their recommendation, 'fine-oil', is trustworthy. It provides a little lubrication and a few months worth of anti-corrosion protection without choking the thread, or covering up swarf particles. On the other hand, I doubt coppered grease on the threads would do any harm to a hobby lathe, though it might make reverse cutting exciting if the chuck unscrews.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 07/04/2021 09:33:11

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I would clean the threads and then give them a light coating of oil, do the same with the female threads also.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Ady your statement that with back gear you never get a stuck chuck,there is also a very good chance that it will result in back gears with a few teeth missing. use a rag with a drop of 3 in 1 oil to wipe the nose thread,should a lathe be left left idle for a long time then loosen or remove the chuck. Especially on machines that have a pumped cooling supply of soluble oil.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Also, make sure the two mating parts are at the same temperature. I had a tight chuck this last winter and I am fairly sure it was due to fitting a cold chuck to a spindle at room temperature.

Most certainly putting MTs together with the female warm and the male cold causes a problem. My chucks are normally bumped loose by hand force, but this time I was somewhat surprised and I needed to resort to a bar through the tail end of the spindle (the hole provided by a previous owner). No tightness (once loosened) and there has not been a recurrence since – even though that chuck is removed and refitted quite regularly.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

There is no down side to using a small amount of anti seize grease. There are numerous antiseize compounds out there. Common are copper or graphite or nickel based greases. There are non metalic ones as well, like the marine antiseize. It is great stuff and I think a little cleaner than the metalic ones. They all have their special uses. Anitseize is good , especially when you are not using the lathe lathe often or not going to be changing the chuck for along time. I had my lathe in storage for 3 years and put some antiseize on the spindle of my S7. The chuck was not difficult to change. It may still have been the case with a light though, who knows.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 07/04/2021 09:10:24:

It used to be a Royal Navy standing order that all threaded lathe chucks had to have a brown paper ring between the backplate and the spindle shoulder…….

I suggested this once… many people disagreed with me.

Rob

[Bob n AboutParticipant @bobnabout]

I would only use clean oil on the spindle nose, it is too easy for copper slip to get contaminated with particles that then take on a copper colour. With oil, a wipe with clean paper towel will indicate contamination with a dark streak or particles.

Using copper slip for long term storage is a different matter, but I wouldn’t use for day to day.

Edited By Bob n About on 07/04/2021 22:27:57

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 07/04/2021 21:13:22:

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 07/04/2021 09:10:24:

It used to be a Royal Navy standing order that all threaded lathe chucks had to have a brown paper ring between the backplate and the spindle shoulder…….

I suggested this once… many people disagreed with me.

Rob

Well I disagree with them! The paper would act as washer, keeping the chuck and the thread contacts straight by minimising the effect of any irregularities on the bearing surface, whilst reducing wear on the register. I believe, but can't find a reference, that washers also increase the grip, while eliminating galling and reducing corrosion locking.

I suspect paper rings aren't popular because of the extra fuss and bother, not least the need to have a supply of paper rings to hand! Nor are they needed on a modern production machine where cam-locks are preferred to slo-mo screw-on chucks! And in a home workshop the amount of wear caused by chuck changing is likely to be low.

Context is important whenever 'best practice' is taught. Often as not there isn't a correct single answer. What's best on a shop-floor might not be good enough in a tool-room, and tool-room techniques aren't appropriate in my garage workshop! The Royal Navy would be mindful of the special needs of a shipborne repair facility : ideally warships are kept at a high state of readiness, and this includes keeping a small workshop in good order ready for urgent repairs. Really bad at sea if the steering can't be fixed because a lathe wasn't kept in tip-top condition, especially whilst being shot at. Up until about 1960, ship workshops were kept busy by the relatively primitive technology of the day – full of mechanical gubbins and plain bearings etc. Since then technology has moved on so much towards replace rather than repair and electronics, that I'm not sure a 2021 frigate carries a lathe at all. Does anybody know?

Dave

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I would have thought ordinary brown paper would absorb water and promote rust, a particular problem at sea! Perhaps the workshop stocked something like James Walker's Gaskoid which looks like brown paper.

Russell

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Oil the brown paper first. Using it on a lathe spindle is new to me, but I've never heard of oiled brown paper gaskets causing corrosion problems.

I might try it!

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

68 years I have machined in all sorts of lathes and never yet seen or needed to grease the manndrel where the chuck fits.

Just particular cleaning of any part that touches.

Having just read the ML10 instruction book, it says lightly oil the mandrel when mounting a chuck!

So there, do what it says.

 

Edited By Clive Hartland on 08/04/2021 12:56:55

Edited By Clive Hartland on 08/04/2021 13:01:10

[Bob n AboutParticipant @bobnabout]

Unless you need to run high pressure steam down the spindle I wouldn't use a chuck gasket. Possibly consider the superior properties a ring of wood chip wall paper can offer. Ornamental turning and fine knurling without a dedicated knurling tool. Just goes to show how overrated those machined surfaces are you paid so much money for.

Edited By Bob n About on 08/04/2021 13:53:34

Edited By Bob n About on 08/04/2021 13:56:53

[Oven ManParticipant @ovenman]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/04/2021 10:06:41:

Context is important whenever 'best practice' is taught. Often as not there isn't a correct single answer. What's best on a shop-floor might not be good enough in a tool-room, and tool-room techniques aren't appropriate in my garage workshop! The Royal Navy would be mindful of the special needs of a shipborne repair facility : ideally warships are kept at a high state of readiness, and this includes keeping a small workshop in good order ready for urgent repairs. Really bad at sea if the steering can't be fixed because a lathe wasn't kept in tip-top condition, especially whilst being shot at. Up until about 1960, ship workshops were kept busy by the relatively primitive technology of the day – full of mechanical gubbins and plain bearings etc. Since then technology has moved on so much towards replace rather than repair and electronics, that I'm not sure a 2021 frigate carries a lathe at all. Does anybody know?

Dave

I do know that both the new Royal Navy aircraft carriers are equipped with electric furnaces and ovens for metals heat treatment work so it's very likely that they have machine tools as well.

Peter

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Oven Man on 08/04/2021 16:18:38:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/04/2021 10:06:41:

… I'm not sure a 2021 frigate carries a lathe at all. Does anybody know?

Dave

I do know that both the new Royal Navy aircraft carriers are equipped with electric furnaces and ovens for metals heat treatment work so it's very likely that they have machine tools as well.

Peter

Furnaces and ovens sound very much like a proper workshop. The internet doesn't help, I found:

I did find mention of Mazak Machine Centres being supplied in Shipping Containers fitted out as workshops to the military and perhaps the same set-up would be permanent on a ship.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/04/2021 09:31:04:

Anti-seize is a 'good thing' when normally left alone fasteners have to be undone periodically. Wheel nuts are a candidate, and I guess car makers are against anti-seize compounds because their priority is not being sued because a wheel came off after the owner followed their maintenance instructions.

 

No great conspiracy. What the car makers are actually interested in is the tensile load in the bolt and thence the forces between the wheelnut and the dimple in the wheel. This is intimately related to the torque on the wheelnut and the coefficient of friction between nut and bolt.

The only (reasonably) known situation is with dry parts. Anything else (lubrication) is a variable, unknown situation. Lubrication makes it very easy to apply torques that lead to excessive loads on the wheel dimples and thence to cracking.

50+ years ago I worked in this area for a major car company. I've seen the (scary) damage overstressing can do. I doubt that the general principles have changed.

(However, I don't think any of this applies to putting chucks on a Myford)

 

 

Edited By Peter Greene on 08/04/2021 19:09:55

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