Announcement re: Model Engineers’ Workshop

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

One thought I have is that the advent of the digital camera means effectively free photographs. I shot the equivalent of two rolls of film last night just to get one good shot of Jupiter and one of the moon.

This means that when documenting a build it's tempting to photograph every single operation. That operation then gets described, so are digital cameras a potential cause of bloat?

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

They quite possibly are, I typically have 200-300 photos for any of my engine build threads but as I'm not so good with words they may replace a paragraph or two of text. There is also the thought that a newbie may more easily understand a setup or proceedure from looking at a photo than trying to follow a long text that uses terms they may not understand.

J

Edited By JasonB on 11/02/2014 20:42:14

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 11/02/2014 20:28:58:

… so are digital cameras a potential cause of bloat?

Neil

.

Yes; and, as authors are paid by the page, it must be tempting to submit lots of images.

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that it's part of the Editor's job to moderate this

MichaelG.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 11/02/2014 20:28:58:

This means that when documenting a build it's tempting to photograph every single operation. That operation then gets described, so are digital cameras a potential cause of bloat?

In the past I have submitted a selection of photographs with the expectation that the editor would choose which to publish, the size and placement being dependent on the house style. I think it was Stan Bray in ME who started the rather lazy trend (in my opinion) of collating some photographs together with captions and calling it a constructional series.

Rod

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 11/02/2014 20:06:02:

I just read your article on cams in HSM, 7 pages. That is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It was excellent by the way.

So this didn't fit into your 3 pages at the most ?

Edited By John Stevenson on 11/02/2014 20:42:18

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 11/02/2014 19:54:20:

Posted by John Stevenson on 11/02/2014 18:42:51:

I take HSM and Digital machinist.

If we are talking about all articles being 3 pages long then we must be talking about different magazines.

Just picked one up and there is an article about a carriage stop for a mini lathe – not really rocket science is it.?

That article took 5 complete pages but took 8 up in the mag due to adverts

Yes, we are talking about different magazines. I was attempting to compare Machinist's Workshop to MEW. Home Shop Machinist is also excellent. In the current episode, out of 14 articles (16 if you include a classified page and a Advertisers index) only two are serialised.

In the current issue of Machinist's Workshop, we find:-

An Unusual 4 Jaw Chuck For Clockmakers:- Constructional article with description and photographs, 41/2 pages.

A Studebaker Hydraulic Vice:- Restoration article, 21/2 pages.

Cold Casting with RTV:- Making rubber bushes using RTV, 1 page.

Give Your Vice Swivel Jaws and Pads:- Simple mod to give angled jaws to milling vice, 1 page.

Improve Leadscrew Reverse Latch on Mini Lathe:- What it says on the tin, Constructional article, 2 pages.

Machine Rebuilding: Bearing Surface Renewal:- Serialised, machine rebuild, this episode concentrates on surface grinding, 7 pages.

An Accurate Experiment:- Gunsmithing article, not really relevant to British readers but interesting nonetheless, 2 pages.

A Vertical Shear bit for the Lathe:- essentially a gunsmithing article but covering a ground up finishing tool, 21/2 pages.

All this makes for a very interesting read with some good solid constructional material. Readers are invited to contact the authors by email if the have any queries. I know that HSM and MW also have a thriving forum. The copy of HSM I have also contains 14 main articles, 8 of which are constructional and only 2 of which are serialised. So HSM and MW prove It CAN be done.

I take the point about serialisation to an extent. However, I would venture to suggest that serialisation is used in MEW to compensate for lack of copy and to ensure repeat purchases. And before anyone tells me that if I want something I should write it myself, that argument does not stand up to scrutiny since it is the job of the magazine's staff to recruit good writers and commission potential articles. There are plenty of great ideas for constructional and tooling articles on the forums with people who I'm sure would not take much persuading.

With regard to articles of a few pages length, the ME copies of old also prove that it definitely CAN be done.It is all down to the writing. Much of the stuff in MEW and ME is rambling and full of digression. Perhaps this is precisely so that the articles can be serialised. I have looked at several ME backnumbers from the 40s to the 70s and they are generally informative and interesting whilst retaining brevity.

I really don't mind what people call themselves either in here or anywhere else. I accept the idea of a nom de plume for the editor when copy is needed. Hubert Lansley did the same as "Spanner" in the Meccano Magazine, for many years. That said, this sort of thing adds to the air of elitism in ME and MEW.

I wish to make it known that I do not intend my comments to be inflammatory or to offend anyone. I would simply like to see a Quality British Workshop Magazine rather than having to buy an American one.

Carl,

Use of the down arrow will allow us to separate the quotation from your comments. At present it sometimes looks as if your comments have been made by others which is rather unfair to them.

cheers,

Rod

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Posted by John Stevenson on 11/02/2014 20:42:03:

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 11/02/2014 20:06:02:

I just read your article on cams in HSM, 7 pages. That is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It was excellent by the way.

So this didn't fit into your 3 pages at the most ?

Edited By John Stevenson on 11/02/2014 20:42:18

You can see it doesn't so there is really no need to be facetious. I was and am trying to make the point that much in MEW is long winded, esoteric and digressive. It can be and in fact is done better, so we can all hope for a better and more informative magazine. Seeking to undermine the points that I and others have made about the shortcomings of ME and MEW only further reinforces the image of a cliquey, elitist set of publications that are aimed at and controlled by and for a select few.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

It wasn't being facetious, you say one thing in one post and contradict yourself in another.

You say it can be done better but this is only your view.

Out of a publication figure of say 20,000 [ just making numbers up ] you will only please 10,000 at the most on one subject but only 5,000 on another.

When was the last time you read a mag and thought every article ticked all the boxes for you ?

As regards being elitist not really sure what you mean?

If you mean the authors then it's perhaps that the management realise that without them there would be no mag and there are no staff writers any more and hasn't been for years – simple fact.

Also true that HSM has an active forum but as I pointed out the the other day why does this one have so many whingers and whiners ? They don't exist on HSM. Is it because they actually DO things and not stay welded to an armchair expecting everyone else to write the mag for them .

Sorry if you don't like this reply but to be honest I couldn't give a hoot.

You are entitled to your views and I'm entitled to mine

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Well congratulations Neil. I wonder if your referee qualifications are upto scratch?

If not this might be useful **LINK**

You do realise it's now your fault that the articles are too long, too short, all CNC, all Loco, too many ads, print is too small, drawing standards are shite not like they were in the 40's when Billy edited the magazine and while you are sorting that lot out your website's crap!

Seriously, very best of luck and if I ever get time I will try and contribute an article that's not too long, not too short…

Best regards

Steve

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

The old armchair epithet, brought into play whenever someone disagrees with the status quo. I'm not a bad welder but I'm not good enough to fuse myself to a Parker Knoll.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but whenever one is expressed that doesn't fit in with the cognoscenti the furniture metaphors get trotted out.

Why are there so many "whingers" here and none on the HSM/MW forum? I wonder why that could be.

3 pages, 5, 7, you get the idea. Concise and informative would make for a more enjoyable read is all I'm saying. And I do not think I am alone.

 

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 11/02/2014 22:36:22

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 11/02/2014 22:58:09

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Well I read the recent one on screw cutting with a gearbox equipped Myford to do oddball threads.

I personally thought it was well written and informative and I don't even have a Myford [ well working one anyway ]

Same as Neils threading article on the C3, I do have one of these but admit it hardly ever sees the light of day. However still informative and with a bit of working outside the box able to be translated to virtually any lathe.

Quality of HSM could be that they have 8 weeks to get the next issue out instead of 4, greater circulation given the US of A is a tad bigger than the UK ?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

There is one big problem I have to tackle to publish more short articles. If by 'short' we mean 1-5 pages, then the average length is three pages.

Looking at articles that are 'banked up' for the next few issues, the typical longer article is 20 pages.

So to fill the same number of pages as one long article, I need seven short ones.

Despite what it may seem, long articles can need more editing effort (on a per page basis) than short ones (they need to be split into sections, references have to be checked and amended but now span multiple issues of the magazine, and any amendments need to be made mindful of the whole series, not just the one instalment.

There is space for both types of article in MEW, though there seems to be agreement that more short articles would be welcome. That said, I don't want to disillusion writers of good, longer articles so they shouldn't fear becoming an endangered species.

Many of the best writers can produce short as well as long series, but I am sure that putting three articles by Fred the Shed in each of seven successive issues might be equally unpopular. So, the challenge I face is enthusing a large number of new authors to come forward.

Hence, saying 'if you want to see new content, write some yourself' isn't flippant, it's practical. It isn't elitist either.

Another possibility is changing how articles are split. Two parters could become longer single part articles (but this reduces variety). Long series could be split into smaller parts, making more room for short articles, but then they drag out for longer.

One approach that will work for some topics, but not others, is the linked series, where each article stands alone but still forms a body of work when taken together (my own first articles for MEW were structured in this way).

It's all a balancing act, and I don't expect to find any magic numbers. All I can do is ask encourage new writers and old alike to consider different ways of presenting their work, and experiment with different ways of presenting the content. Then listen to the feedback (hopefully not in green ink or ALL IN CAPITALS) and learn from it.

Anyone interested in expressing a personal view on the content of MEW or offering to write for it can contact me on neil.wyatt @ mytimemedia.com (delete spaces)

 

Neil

Edited By JasonB on 12/02/2014 16:59:06

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Neil I know that you have a limited budget for articles and not all authors would want to do it but only get paid for the printed pages. But when you contact new or existing authors as I know you have already been doing before things went public is it worth asking if they will be willing for part of the article to be made available on the web site such as additional photos, drawings and dare I say it pages of Code.

That way you could have 3 pages in the mag and the additional 2 pages on the website maybe free to subscribers and pay per view/download to the occasional magazine buyer who wants to read the full article?

J

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Neil,

For info …

[On the iPad] Clicking the hyperlinked eMail address in your last post opens a web page instead of an eMail window … together with a warning that it's a possible phishing site.

I'm fairly sure there is nothing sinister … but it would be worth a look.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: The hyperlink is    http://neil.wyatt@mytimemedia.com/

… so there is obviously something wrong with how it hyperlinks eMail addresses.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/02/2014 10:19:21

[ASFParticipant @asf]

Totally agree with the model of using the web page as an overrun for code and extra photos.

The recent articles in 213 could definitely have used that. I talk about pictures of a car boot, pictures of a lock clasp and multiple pictures of lathe extras. Four pictures to show a thread being cut by a die. I am sure the list is not exhaustive.

Cnc articles could be included (although a book would be better way to learn imo – read and get on with it rather than wait a month to carry on) and use the website to host the code itself as.

The magazine has about a ratio of 30% advert to other pages. Please use those other pages well and not lots of pictures unless showing the finished article or special set ups etc.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Neil

As Michael G has indicated the link opens the Mytime web page but unlike Michael I get NO warning re phishing or any other threat flagged up, probably a false positive.

Cheers

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Link changed, thanks for pointing it out

Neil, you may want to get your details added to the "contact" page rather than possible new authors sending things to DC1

J

Edited By JasonB on 12/02/2014 10:34:07

[JoParticipant @jo]

I can only wish you well Neil, you have an uphill challenge.

Talking to a much respected past Model Engineer Editor at the Alley Pally show he identified that one of your major challenges to getting real quality input is the copyright demanded by Myhobbystore in comparison with the amount being paid per page. The likes of GHT, Chaddock, Hughes, LBSC, Evans etc, all made additional money by publishing their excellent work later as books, with today's MHS copyright you have lost that opportunity, other publishers are still more reasonable.

Jo

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

Mention was made earlier about the article on a miniature drilling machine by Stephen Bondfield. I don't wish to be too critical but I seem to have been waiting for ever to find out how the motor is wired up, which is my main interest in the article. I think this is an example of a series which has had too many parts and rather too many drawings. The current issue (213) has hardly moved things on ( more drawings and no words )

Having said the above I always enjoy receiving my monthly copy of the magazine and wish the new editor every success with it. One of these days I might get round to writing an article and then realise just how difficult it is to please everybody.

Doug

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Posted by Jo on 12/02/2014 10:33:05:

I can only wish you well Neil, you have an uphill challenge.

… the copyright demanded by Myhobbystore in comparison with the amount being paid per page. … other publishers are still more reasonable.

Jo

I think you also have to consider that for some series articles (i.e the ones that would potentially be turned into books – construction articles, for example), an author will be paid several thousand pounds in some cases, especially when drawings are published. He or she has also had the work professionally edited and 'produced' and has no further costs whatsoever. Just something to throw into the mix …

Diane

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Diane, at least they would have the option to produce books from the articles if they had first had them published in a different magazine, rather than having all rights removed once the article was published by MTM which is the point Jo is trying to make and that the amount paid for the article by MTM may not reflect the fact the author cannot earn any more from it.

J

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Keith & V8Eng,

Thanks for the references. I was aware that a Sturmey Archer gearbox has been used in such a way. Whether or not I ever get round to doing some serious thinking about the idea remains to be seen: after all, I've managed quite well for the last 20 years with a minimum speed of 125rpm which makes me wonder about my need for it, other than sheer curiosity as to whether I can actually do it.

Everyone else,

Reading through some of the other comments re article length, I have recently submitted an article to Neil on a repair or, to be strictly accurate, a part replacement job. Unfortunately it is a long one. Whilst naturally there is a certain delight in seeing one's name in print, I have to admit that I don't really think this particular article is true model engineering. In fact, I wrote it as a direct result some time ago of some comments in this forum by people objecting to established writers using phrases such as "in the usual manner" when almost by definition, a newcomer to the hobby will not know what this is. As a result, I wrote the article to show just what can be done with basic tools, that is, if a lathe and accessories can be called basic tools. I also went into depth about my reasons for doing something in a particular way, and with hindsight how I would do it better. I also included details of some small handtools that I made, not necessarily for this job, and the reasons why they were better. Finally, I included notes on all the mistakes I made, something that doesn't usually appear. The reason for all of this was to show how I approached things, and messed up, in the hope that newcomers would see that some of us are not geniuses, and hence would not become disillusioned. And if it manages to persuade someone to have a go, then that would be even better.

Now I don't if Neil will publish it or not. It doesn't matter to me because I'm not in this for the money nor am I in it for the glory. But, I've tried to answer an identified need in the best way that I can, but it takes a lot of space (for me) to impart that sort of information.

In respect of photographs, I've already said that one photograph can replace a thousand words. The article above does indeed have a lot of photos. Is it better to use a photo to demonstrate the technique, or is it better to describe it in words? I don't know.

Let me give you an example of where I have found photographs useful. For a long time, I always wondered whether my turning was good enough as even what I thought was smooth had lines on it. Then, with the increase in photography, I realised that other people's work had also lines on it. This then served to a) show that my work was perhaps acceptable, or maybe not; and b) to show what I should be aiming for. So to me, photos can be very helpful. And yes, I do agree that they can take up a lot of space.

In reality, I don't know what the answer is. Should I desist from submitting articles because I cannot write succinctly? Should I desist from relating my experiences, my failures, my reasons for doing something a certain way? Should all articles, not necessarily mine, be limited to the barebones of do this, do that, do the other, and all will be well? I don't know – you tell me.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Anonymous]

I cannot see me ever wanting to use anything I might write for ME or MEW elsewhere on a commercial basis, but I wonder if the exclusivity would prevent one from using the material, in a different form and not commercially, on a public forum. Say for instance I write an article based on something I have made for my traction engines. Would the deal prevent me from discussing the parts, albeit in a different style of writing, on say the TractionTalk forum?

Regards,

Andrew

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Regarding the matter of Copyright:

I think [hope] that there is some confusion in the recent posts, between the Terms for use of the website and the Terms for articles submitted for publication in the magazines.

If I recall correctly [and, apologies if I do not], MTM only gets "First Publication Rights" on the magazine articles.

… Please correct me if I am wrong !!

MichaelG.

[JoParticipant @jo]

MichaelG: That was how it used to be… it has changed but the payments didn't increase to reflect it.

It should be of no concern to most writers who just knock together the odd article for some pin money but, if like Anthony Mount, it provides your living then you are likely to publish elsewhere.

Andrew: Copyright doesn't work like that. But be careful if you post your drawings if they formed part of the article…. But nothing stops you doing prior publication on forums like Stuart Hart does with some of his material before it is published in ME .

Jo

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