An open request for microcontroller type equality

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bazyle on 09/12/2016 13:21:28:

Bit luddite but can you leave most of this type of stuff for electronics magazines please. People needing the info can buy those mags. It will be completely obsolete in 2 years and impossible to getthe parts in 5. An article on screwcutting is releveant to this hobby and will be for 50 years. It is a different hobby and although we want an awareness and occasional touch point we should not be changing the focus of the magazine.

Bazyle, look at the latest index, these topics are not taking over. But they are of interest to a significant proportion of readers, as this discussion bears witness. It's critical that we have some content that speaks to people taking up the hobby, or we will go the way of Aeromodeller magazine that didn't understand how lightweight electrical R/C ('silent flight&#39 would affect people's attitude to free flight models.

Most people taking up model engineering today will be highly computer literate and think it very odd if there's no place for modern tech in the workshop. I bet you have a digital caliper, if not a DRO!

AVRs (1996) and PICs (1976!) have been around for decades and will continue to be available for decades; even my electric toothbrush has an AVR in it. The Arduino boards have been around since 2006 and show no signs of disappearing.

Our focus on tools and techniques won't change, but we do have to make space for new tools and techniques alongside the old ones.

Neil

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 09/12/2016 14:24:26:

….I bet you have a digital caliper, if not a DRO!

 

While I don't particularly disagree with your comments, Neil, I think it's a bit of a stretch to read across from digital caliper to AVR and PIC.

In any event, this type of issue (pun) tends to be self regulating. Sales trends ultimately determine the outcome.

 

Edited By Bandersnatch on 09/12/2016 14:56:34

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

You may not realise it but a modern car typically contains between 50-100 microcontrollers. That's a big change over the last 3 decades or so. When I started messing with cars and bikes, the only electrics were motors, relays, bulbs etc (and audio I suppose). Although nostalgia has its place, most us use technology to make things, not to inhabit the past. Whilst there will always be good old fashioned manual lathes, coming generations will have some pretty fantastic machinery in their home workshops….

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 09/12/2016 14:56:01:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 09/12/2016 14:24:26:

….I bet you have a digital caliper, if not a DRO!

While I don't particularly disagree with your comments, Neil, I think it's a bit of a stretch to read across from digital caliper to AVR and PIC.

In any event, this type of issue (pun) tends to be self regulating. Sales trends ultimately determine the outcome.

Point 1 – the DROs and speed sensors on my mill are wired up to a box with four AVBR based readouts in it that I made (back in Dave Fenner's day!).

Point 2 – Indeed, as my livelihood literally depends on those sales trends!

Neil

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

From a 2N3055 and BC108/9 electronic age, I would think AVR was an automatic voltage control for an alternator generator.

However, there will never be parity (equality) where devices are concerned. Wasn't with VCR and Beta-max video recorders/players, so why should equality expected now? 'Horses for courses' will always determine which choice of device will win out. Same with everything else, too. Cars – petrol or diesel choices and EVs to take their place? – might be another example.

Plenty of space without screaming for parity. Why do I wind up our old clocks rather than ditch them for quartz controlled battery operated ones? I actually find the ticking more interesting than the almost silence of the new generation of wall clocks, where no more skill is required than changing a cell once every few months. But a modern smoke alarm is far better than waiting for a lead fuse to melt and raise a racket. Equality in everything is like communism – an ideal but just doesn't work!

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Neil – thank you.

1) My younger days were spent playing around with RCA 1802s and the like, certainly not steam of any kind.

2) My younger days were NOT spent train-spotting, nor trying to "cop" 46464 pulling the Penine Express. There were no steam locomotives to see, only diesels. About a couple a day, at that.

3) I love making/designing things, so building a steam locomotive is a treat, but the country of origin does not matter, at least not nearly as much as the colour. (46464 – black, green, crimson, lined/unlined? decisions I have to make soon)

4) I don't bother reading Arduino articles, as to me that is "childs play", but I accept that I'm certainly not in the majority here.

5) In bantering with John Stevenson, (A fun thing to do – he's nice guy!) to me building a CNC machine, 95% of the difficulty is in the hardware, like fitting ball screws, etc. The computer stuff I can do in my sleep. It's the opposite for many, but it does take all types, and computer knowledge is only going to get stronger as the youngsters age, and, (as in my case) "shop" courses will have been unknown.

Hope you don't mind the supportive thoughts.

John.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I don't mid any thoughts on this issue, it's clear that different people have different views. My aim is to try and make sure that each issues is varied enough that everyone will find something really worthwhile in it and consider most of the articles worth reading. Obviously sometimes some readers will find an article they skim over, but that's just as likely to be the one another reader thinks was the best in the issue!

In short, my main aim as editor has been to try and keep a variety of articles in each issue. The two things I do wish had more of are very short 1 or 2 page articles with good photos on any aspect of the hobby and more relatively simple 'makes' whether for advanced or beginners but short enough to be one part with good drawings.

Neil

[DodParticipant @dod]

As a Luddite and confirmed heathen – Doric with a bit of English thrown in has sufficed for me up till now.

COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, C+, C++PIC, AVR, PYTHON, AVA, Ada all languages I have never used, I did some Pascal at college and didn't understand it either.

In this day and age, why cant a computer be made to understand *******(insert your own national language) like what it is wrote and nae mangle it for a computers benefit. Would stop all this argy bargy.

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

From my observations, most young people have absolutely no idea, or interest in, how or why a computer, or anything else, works. Generally they seem to be slaves to the machines, barely able to do anything without them.

It's us oldies who are always opening the box to see how it works and if we can improve it. With mixed results in my case

Once the machines become sufficiently intelligent there'll be no need for people . . .

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Electronics articles that might be of longer lived use would be a) circuit diagram and how to repair the speed control of one of the popular lathes that keep giving rise to calls for help on the forum, and b) how to repair one of the professional DRO sets that adorn half the Bridgeprots on ebay.

Back on software it's a pity that in all the years since BASIC was invented and denigrated new languages all seem to have {spec??!ial} [complex]; : syntax= . which the computer complains about instead of correcting.
I shouldn't need to play with excel or write reams of C++ to manipulate variables I should be able by now to say "List all the combinations of numbers (gears) that give a ratio of Xtpi with an 8tpi leadscrew". I mean those English words should be the language, not that someone should write a program in C++ that interprets them as with Alexa and Siri.

[David TaylorParticipant @davidtaylor63402]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 09/12/2016 11:12:08:

My main criticism of many modern languages is that if you misspell the name of a variable they assume you want a new one rather than flagging an error – I need to type more carefully.

Yes, the trend in language design in the last 10-15 years towards removing type-safety is a really bad idea IMO. The existence of Typescript which tries to add type-safety back into Javascript show at least some people are beginning to understand how dumb this was.

I'm pretty good at code wrangling but I have to say I'm not a C++ fan. I do really like Java though – the best bits of C++ without the horrors. I've been using it since JDK1.0 and I think it's better than any language I used before or since.

Having said that I'm okay with C++ as long as its all mine, like for a microcontroller.

I agree with others that articles about the different types of microcontroller or dev boards are the realm of electronics mags. If there is a workshop project that uses them all well and good, but I don't think MEW is the place for comparisons or articles explicitly about these things.

[Cyril BonnettParticipant @cyrilbonnett24790]

Muzzer

You could ride a British bike to far off lands and break down and the local engineering shop would fix it for you at little cost, fast forward to our local town carpark where I sat and watched a BMW motorcyclist trying to start his new state of the art expensive motorbike, no go so he called a well know rescue company who I must say were quick on arriving. After a few checks they started to dismantle the throttle and then proceeded to wrap the dismantled throttle in a plastic bag! the bike was then loaded onto a trailer and headed off to the nearest BMW bike dealer, 93miles away.

Today there are many people crossing the boundary from mechanical controlled systems to electronic controlled systems and no doubt like modern motorcycles the future technological minded engineering souls will sit in the special futuristic 'shed' designing their model with the newest and costliest lathe and an equally expensive computer. Perhaps in 2035 they'll even end up queuing like they do today for Apple's mobile phones for the latest 2035 myford lathe.

Ask Neil about modern living room astronomy, remote controlled, sometimes from afar, standing about out in the cold never.

**LINK**

We have lived through an amazing era of human development, but as one young man employed by us  for the summer said" I've never used a spanner before" but he was very deft at using his IPhone.

Model engineering is developing fast but there should still be an emphasis on hand on skills, once lost, like the dodo, they will never return.

Edited By Cyril Bonnett on 10/12/2016 00:32:51

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Cyril Bonnett on 10/12/2016 00:26:35:

Muzzer

You could ride a British bike to far off lands and break down and the local engineering shop would fix it for you at little cost, fast forward to our local town carpark where I sat and watched a BMW motorcyclist trying to start his new state of the art expensive motorbike, no go so he called a well know rescue company who I must say were quick on arriving. After a few checks they started to dismantle the throttle and then proceeded to wrap the dismantled throttle in a plastic bag! the bike was then loaded onto a trailer and headed off to the nearest BMW bike dealer, 93miles away.

Today there are many people crossing the boundary from mechanical controlled systems to electronic controlled systems and no doubt like modern motorcycles the future technological minded engineering………

I could take the ignition points out of my Viva, grind the pip off and put them back in well under 20 minutes. But then I had to do it every 3000 miles, and throw them away and replace ever 6000. Plugs needed replacing every 12000 at most. By 80,000 you'd be drinking oil and looking for a Gold Seal engine. The first car I had with electronic ignition just went. I replaced the plugs every 40000 on the basis that it seemed like a good thing to do, it didn't actually make any difference to performance. The last car I sold had 160,000 on the clock and still didn't use any oil. Modern cars are way more reliable than old ones, use less fuel, stop when you want them to, and go round corners without throwing you through the hedge.

Similarly, if you want articles on manual machine techniques look in the back issues, there is nothing new to say. The perennial topic of setting up gear trains for odd screw pitches must have consumed more paper and ink than the Authorised Version. If a chip becomes obsolete just use a more modern one, the basic circuit operation and code won't change.

Come on chaps, join the 21st century, don't sit in the 19th. And by the way, I'm pretty ancient, when I started work a calculator was a slide rule.

Edited By duncan webster on 10/12/2016 01:39:41

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bazyle on 09/12/2016 22:59:27:

I shouldn't need to play with excel or write reams of C++ to manipulate variables I should be able by now to say "List all the combinations of numbers (gears) that give a ratio of Xtpi with an 8tpi leadscrew". I mean those English words should be the language………………

All that demonstrates is that the problem hasn't been properly specified. There could be an infinite number of solutions, even if limited to integers, which isn't mentioned.

Debates about this language, or that language, including English, are sterile if the underlying description of what is to be achieved isn't understood in the first place.

I can't remember where I read it, but I have the following in mind:

"If you create a computer than can be programmed in plain English the only thing you will discover is that programmers cannot write plain English."

Andrew

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 10/12/2016 06:42:43:

I can't remember where I read it, but I have the following in mind:

"If you create a computer than can be programmed in plain English the only thing you will discover is that programmers cannot write plain English."

Andrew

.

Presumably, Douglas Adams read the same thing, Andrew

MichaelG.

.

P.S.  … I've just found a concise, and relevant, post:

https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-programming-languages-be-written-in-plain-English

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 10/12/2016 09:27:04

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

As another software developer turned 'engineer', I have this wonderful feeling of relief when I turn to coding for something I'm trying to make. After 40 odd years of coding, I just write it and it works (well, perhaps not QUITE that simple). Pretty much regardless of the tools.

This is in stark contrast to my trepidations with a mill or lathe when results are unpredictable and errors common. Sometimes I turn a piece of bar and it's lovely. more often than not it's scarred with grooves and quite the wrong size. Why? I have no idea at all. Seems to be the same material, speed and cutter. I think I'm getting better, but will probably never really know why!

Those of you who come from an engineering background (or have been hobbyists for longer) will no doubt be able to turn out a piece in 25 minutes from an inspiration only in your head which would take me 3 weeks, 4 goes and a lot of scrap.

But may find the idea of popping inside to their PC to tweak a downloaded code file fills them with terror!

There are no doubt many on this forum who handle both sides of this skill set with professionalism, competency and aplomb.

I hate them.

Iain

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Folk may be surprised that I have no CNC in my workshop, despite Sir John of Bligeport's enthusiastic encouragement!

My position has been that I enjoy machining by hand. I certainly enjoyed making my first dovetail with the shaper, but I'm not sure I would want to do dozens that way… The impact on 'productivity' of a simple power feed has been remarkable. The temptation to combine power feed and a digital rotary table to help avoid the large pile of failed gears is quite strong…

Posted by Cyril Bonnett on 10/12/2016 00:26:35:

Ask Neil about modern living room astronomy, remote controlled, sometimes from afar, standing about out in the cold never.

I should be so lucky! That said, I struggle with eyepieces for various reasons which is why I prefer imaging to (long sessions of) observing and if the camera is clicking away on its own for two hours, if it's cold I will retreat to the workshop or computer (why I sometimes post in the middle of the night).

I must admit that making (mechanical and electronic) a GOTO system has been very rewarding both the achievement AND the better results.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/12/2016 09:56:58:I must admit that making (mechanical and electronic) a GOTO system has been very rewarding both the achievement AND the better results.

GOTO ?? I thought you favoured structured programming

Russell.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 10/12/2016 10:40:08:

GOTO ?? I thought you favoured structured programming

.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Iain Downs on 10/12/2016 09:12:07:

As another software developer turned 'engineer', I have this wonderful feeling of relief when I turn to coding for something I'm trying to make. After 40 odd years of coding, I just write it and it works (well, perhaps not QUITE that simple). Pretty much regardless of the tools.

This is in stark contrast to my trepidations with a mill or lathe when results are unpredictable and errors common. Sometimes I turn a piece of bar and it's lovely. more often than not it's scarred with grooves and quite the wrong size. Why? I have no idea at all. Seems to be the same material, speed and cutter. I think I'm getting better, but will probably never really know why!

Those of you who come from an engineering background (or have been hobbyists for longer) will no doubt be able to turn out a piece in 25 minutes from an inspiration only in your head which would take me 3 weeks, 4 goes and a lot of scrap.

But may find the idea of popping inside to their PC to tweak a downloaded code file fills them with terror!

There are no doubt many on this forum who handle both sides of this skill set with professionalism, competency and aplomb.

I hate them.

Iain

Snap!

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