Ambiguous words

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 28/04/2022 19:56:18:

Is what Americans/Canadians call a "store" ever described as a "shop" over there? Can you say "go storing" or does it have to be "go shopping"?

Not usually, although you get a mixture of English and American in Canada so it's possible. And yes, we go shopping (at the store).

I think though, most Canadians as well as Americans would understand "shop" to mean some kind of workshop/machine-shop environment or car servicing … "my car's in the shop" .

Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 28/04/2022 22:43:11

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Thanks for the word from the street, Peter. I'll run this past my Canadian cousin too next time I speak to her.

A valuable anecdote, Duncan, and one borne out by section 4a of the entry for "shop" in the OED:

"4.a. A building or room equipped and used for a particular craft or manufacturing trade; a workshop (frequently as opposed to an office). In later use also (spec.): a room or department in a factory where a particular stage of production is carried out (frequently with distinguishing word)."

Slightly overlapping with this is section 2:

"2. A house or building where goods are made or prepared for sale and also sold. Now archaic and rare."

So it appears that if goods are sold as well as made in the place, calling it a shop is archaic and rare, at least according to the OED, which, language being what it is, can never be an infallible guide to usage.

My own limited knowledge of the difference between American/Canadian and British "shop" was until now confined to what we're told in the note added to 3a:

"In British English, shop usually refers to any building or part of a building where goods are sold, whereas in North America this kind of building is usually called a store (store n. 12), while shop more commonly refers to a place where things are done or made, or to a smaller retail establishment offering a limited range of goods. In British English store is usually a large retail complex, such as a department store."

Edited By Bill Phinn on 28/04/2022 23:33:09

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 28/04/2022 23:31:27:

….whereas in North America…., or to a smaller retail establishment offering a limited range of goods.

This is a good point actually … a small retail establishment here might well be called a shop.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Shop = place to do things occurs in many compound words – spray shop, press-shop, assembly shop, welding shop, etc

And store = place to keep stuff, in paint store, cold store, feed store, etc.

And then, place where stuff just happens = room, as in drying room, wet room, cold room, store-room.

Tim

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Frank Gorse on 28/04/2022 22:40:23:

I had also assumed that ‘shop’ ,meaning workshop, was just another of the Americanisms we were stuck with but in Stanley Holloway’s ‘Three ha’pence a foot’ Sam Oswaldthwaite followed his trade ‘in a shop on the banks of the Irwell’ and that dates back to 1932 at least. Also relevant to present fears of rising sea levels!

I'll see your 1932 and raise you a 1774 plan of Chatham Dockyard shewing amongst the various houses, lofts and cabbins (yes, two 'Bs before anybody asks if that is the question) the Glazier's, Brazier's and Plumber's Shops, the House Carpenter's Shop, the Wheelwright's Shop, The Smith's Shop, the Armourer's Shop, the Stone Mason's Shop and the Painter's Shop.

Brian G

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

Fair enough,looks like we can’t blame the Americans for this one!

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Staying with store but with a side order of Model Engineer, how about "Magazine"?

Brian G

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 28/04/2022 22:12:09:

Bill – my grandfather was a joiner, and he had a top shop with the machinery in, and a bottom shop where he made gates and stuff that wouldn't go down the stairs. And he retired in about 1950. So, at least in the N of England, it goes back a fairly long way.

Cheers, Tim

I see we're talking shop this morning!

Shop in the sense of being a workshop is Middle English, ie. the period from 1066 to about 1600). In the UK that usage faded during the early 20th Century. In the UK we now prefer workshop, whilst the original meaning remained solid in the US, and extended to cover in schools what we call Metalwork and Woodwork, now both replaced with 'Material Science'.

Anyone wishing to bash Americanisms is advised to check a big dictionary first. Many of them are valid English words that became unfashionable in the UK and largely forgotten. For example, Brits almost entirely replaced 'fall' with 'autumn' in the 19th Century. An improvement I think, because it gives us autumnal, but fall is still British English too. In the same way, Americans retained 'gotten', which only survives in British English in 'forgotten'.

Apparently the purist British English is spoken and written in India. Many languages are spoken in the world's largest democracy, so rather than show favouristism to a particular group, the law and much government is transacted in English. Therefore, English is taught to a common standard throughout India and the standard is unsullied by slang, jargon or other modernisms.

Latin was the most popular international language for nearly 2000 years, then a few centuries of French, more recently English. No-one knows what it will be in a thousand years.

Dave

[egaParticipant @ega]

SOD:

I favour the expression shop-made over home-made when it comes to things made in the home workshop.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

To SoD who says: Apparently the purist British English is spoken and written in India.

I know exactly what you mean, but I'm also sure you meant 'purest' – most pure. A Purist, though, is one who makes a point of following a set of rules (rather than applying common sense or going with the flow) – and often the rules followed can be out of date or inappropriate.

As the two words sound the same, they should appear in the Ambiguous list – perhaps in a distinct category. When I read them they are distinct, but when I read them to you. confusion may arise.

But I would argue that both slang and jargon are necessary strands of a language, each particularly suited to certain circumstances and not elsewhere – just as 'Pure' language can be.

Cheers, Tim

And PS – to me Shop-made means bought, not home-made.

Edited By Tim Stevens on 29/04/2022 12:02:18

[Anonymous]

Posted by Brian G on 29/04/2022 09:42:36:

… cabbins (yes, two 'Bs before anybody asks if that is the question) …

Makes you sic doesn't it.

(I'll get me coat).

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

If you don’t like jargon then imagine your doctors talking about your case using only language that the man in the street would understand. Or the pilot on your next holiday flight talking to Air Traffic Control.

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

My American cousins ( now deceased ) used to go shopping in "stores", but they called it going "marketing".

I never heard them speak of going shopping or storing.

Rod

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Then there's bolt, as in "making a bolt for the door".

George

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Rod Renshaw on 29/04/2022 20:21:32:

My American cousins ( now deceased ) used to go shopping in "stores", but they called it going "marketing".

I never heard them speak of going shopping or storing.

Rod

My American wife always went shopping at the store. In 33 years of marriage and 10 years living over there, I never heard of going marketing. Sounds like a regional thing, maybe from the East Coast ( I lived in the West), New England etc?. There is a huge regional diversity in American English. As much as in the UK I am sure. We had large stores in the western US such as the grocery store and department stores, but at the same time motorbike shops were the Harley shop, the Honda shop etc. Go figure, as the Yanks say.

And having spent time in India, I would say their English is archaic textbook English with a definite Victorian tinge left over from the Raj. Not in any way "pure" but their own regional dialect in the same way as the Yanks, Aussies, Canucks et al. But the Indians use more big words straight out of the textbooks, so in some ways could be said to be more articulate! One oddity is their love of the present perfect tense. They will say "My car is having a dead battery" where would just say "My car has a dead battery". This tense seems to be universally common in India for some reason. Maybe it is Hindi grammar transferred over? Or textbook English pedantry?

I found Hong Kong English to be somewhat archaic and textbook too. The Chinese kids all give themselves English names when they study the language and they are straight out of old textbooks. Hence urban hip young 20-somethings introduce themselves as Wallace, Cedric, Enoch, Queenie, Fanny and so on. I worked with a very switched-on woman whose name was Fanny Fung. I never had the heart to point out the ambiguity there. But she was a force to be reckoned with so I wouldn;t have dared anyway.

Edited By Hopper on 30/04/2022 01:53:19

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

What about words that (recent? American?) common usage has made potentially ambiguous? 'Nauseous' does not mean 'experiencing nausea'. People who use it thus are nauseous!

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Hopper on 30/04/2022 01:50:36:

One oddity is their love of the present perfect tense. They will say "My car is having a dead battery"

That's actually called the present continuous, Hopper.

English tenses are a pig for foreign learners.

On the first evening my German penfriend spent with us in the UK about 45 years ago he was sitting at the dining-table having tea with us and my father, wanting to be chatty, asked him:

"Fritz, do you swim?"

Fritz replied, "No, I sit in zee chair".

"Well, I can't argue with that", said my father, and shut up.

Mandarin Chinese is one of the most ambiguous languages under the sun.

Its sound "shi" is one of the most ambiguous. Some people here may already have heard of the "Lion-eating poet in the Stone Den" poem that consists of a sequence of 94 characters all pronouced "shi", albeit with inevitable tonal distinctions.

Apparently, on paper at least it makes coherent sense – sort of.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

After nearly 50 years as a turner, I recently found out (on 'ere) that my lathe has a pair of shears.

Ain't NBG on the hedges, though….

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 30/04/2022 02:54:05:

Posted by Hopper on 30/04/2022 01:50:36:

One oddity is their love of the present perfect tense. They will say "My car is having a dead battery"

That's actually called the present continuous, Hopper.

Bill, you are absolutely right. Well spotted. Thanks for clearing up that ambiguity. I used to know all that stuff once upon a time, a very long time, ago.

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Hopper

My cousins lived in Phoenix, in Arizona, so you would think fairly far West .

But I know what you mean by regionalism. We were introduced to neighbours of theirs who had never seen the sea, so perhaps not as West Coast as all that.

Rod

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Rod Renshaw on 30/04/2022 21:02:44:

Hopper

My cousins lived in Phoenix, in Arizona, so you would think fairly far West .

But I know what you mean by regionalism. We were introduced to neighbours of theirs who had never seen the sea, so perhaps not as West Coast as all that.

Rod

Yes Arizona is definitely in the West, but that is Southwest. I lived in Montana in the Northwest. Two distinctly different regions, linguistically and culturally. And the West Coast is a different region again. My wife had only seen the sea once and was very unsure about getting in it and going swimming when we moved to Australia. ( "There are things in there." ) And I was always confused about the American region they call the MIdwest, which is mostly in the eastern half of the country, slightly to the west of the original east coast colonies. Now, that's ambiguity!

Edited By Hopper on 30/04/2022 23:51:39

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

There was a chap for whom English was not his first language. He asked for clarification of the phrase, “Mary was great with child.” Explanation followed. A little later he asked, not unreasonably, for the meaning behind the phrase “Mr Smith is great with children.”

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I would like to introduce a new category : the ambiguous non-word !

I received an eMail today, containing a gem of a typo.

[quote] This survey will help the National Physical Laboratory understand how they can offer value to their customers, stakeholders, and wider meterology industry. [/quote]

Not meteorology

Not metrology

but some unfortunate mongrel !

MichaelG.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Speaking of the NPL, our favourite site lathes.co.uk refers to it as the National Physical Lavatory on this page

Rob

Links to http://www.lathes.co.uk/dsgfactory003/

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

My wife and I both use the word "threads" in our respective leisure activities, but with rather different meanings…

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