Alternative to PC based Cnc controllers

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Sam, Many thanks for the video although I do know how the Axis screens work as my gear hobber is on Linux cnc with a modified Axis screen.

As I previously mentioned it's not about me but my customers. When they see Linux that are not sure about it coming from Windows and the scant Axis screen isn't intuitive.

If I was to show a prospective customer your video two things stand out. The number of menu clicks that you need to access things and the bareness of the screen as regards buttons. Virtually none are labelled and remember we are talking total beginners here who in most cases, this is their first episode into CNC.

The serious Linux CNC users have grown up with Axis and love it. People like yourself for one and Andy Pugh in the UK and they can't see anything wrong with it and this possibly drives development ?

Until the developers recognise that there is a whole generation of prospective users of what is a very good and reliable CNC program I'm afraid it will remain a developers toy.

Things like the Halscope, as good and useful as it is will just make users eyes glaze over if they saw that. In the hundreds of machines I have built / supported [ more support than built ] I have never had to ask a customer to use an oscilloscope, in fact not only do they not own one, most wouldn't even know what one was.

I don't want to appear to keep bashing Linux, in fact the opposite as I recognise how powerful it can be but most users would be happy with 3 or 4 axis that played well out of the box with screens they could understand.

Moving off this subject for a moment, 10 pages back the OP, Chris Richards asked the original question about a stand alone device.

He has since bought one of the £400 two axis lathe controllers and so far has his lathe axis up and running. He's so far working out limit switches and then that just leaves the VFD to sort out. So I reckon for a total newbie, working blind and only a few emails he's done very well. I foresee in a couple more days he'll be finished and producing parts.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Chris Richards asked the original question about a stand alone device. He has since bought one of the £400 two axis lathe controllers

Hopefully Chris will report back with more details of his experience when he is up and running.

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

any update?

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Well my DDCS1.1 is installed and functioning – a bit Heath Robinson at the moment because the workshop is still in a state of flux but it runs.

Installation replacing an existing Mach3 solution took about an hour – 20 mins to wire it and 40 to find the tools…all the parameters were taken from or derived from the Mach3 setup which helped a lot.

It has now machined half a dozen items, seems fine, no obvious faults nor any instability – it just works. Only issue so far is that I don't think it supports a tool change pause – in Mach 3 you can force a pause at a tool change to manually exchange tools but I cannot see any support for this. Part programmes are an obvious way around.

Frankly, happy. One small box replaces a large and clunky PC plus all of the paraphernalia – the screen is a lot smaller but I haven't missed all of the extra Mach stuff.

Will now think seriously about the lathe controllers for my Compact5PC – awaiting the reports with baited breath!

Simon

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Had my two cheap controllers wired up to steppers and working on the bench whilst playing but it's not really a good test.

So far I have seen post on various forum where about 5 of these things are running. So far no bugs reported although as Simon has said above they might not work how you are used to.

Still early days as some are getting the manual into a better layout with explanations.

On the higher end controllers Steve Blackmore has now finished his lathe and it's busy churning out brass guitar tuning screws as he's been without sock for ages due to not being able to get a lathe to thread.

My lathe controller just sits in a box as the lathe hasn't been started yet and is about 3rd machine in line to convert.

I don't think the high end controllers will have an issue as the NEW990TD-b and the Alteck, CNC Workshop, and GSK offerings have been around in the Chinese home market for about 8 years.

If you look at the industrial side of Optimum and Sieg, not the hooby side these controllers are offered as standard together with the Siemens controller.

[Edward1234Participant @edward1234]

Hello all, new guy here.

Regarding the NEW990MDb 4 axes for the milling machine, it sounds great. I have enquired costs with a view to buy from the Newkye website using their embedded message system, but no reply yet. Maybe, John, you enquired directly by email?

Anyway, I am converting a Sieg SX2.7 to CNC, I haven't seen many of these around yet, it's a bit smaller than the X3, but with improved Y axis movement.

Edward

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/09/2016 14:13:25:

John's just popped round to show me the magic box, just PSU, box, stepper driver and a stepper on X happily whirring through a program that's been uploaded to it.

I've asked him to pull together an article on these boxes to answer the questions and provide an introduction for those not familiar with CNC.

Neil

Neil,

Has the article been published yet (may have missed it – repeatedly because I've looked) or is it pending [and if so roughly when]?

Regards,

Richard.

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Hi,

Do these controllers support servo motors? encoder inputs? tool changers? 4th axis? I am inclined to think they must since they are used industrially in china. Is there any one using it on a bridgeport interact or similar type machine?

Thanks,

Steve

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Servo motors, yes. Encoders, most of them no. One or two, possibly, but the documentation is not easy.

Regards,

Richard.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Depends how far you want to go. $800 plus delivery will get you one of these with loads of encoders, 4-axis control etc. There are lathe and milling versions, 2, 3 and 4 axis.

This one looks similar in many ways. I forget the price but probably very similar. Obviously the price varies according to how many channels you want and you can also buy additional panels, MPG etc.

The Chinglish varies in strength too and some of the Western users appear to have done their own translations.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

The folk in your first link, Adtech, have a UK stockist and associated website. This is the page for the controllers; – **LINK** .

They sell either direct or via E-Bay. Prices don't seem remarkably different from direct import, unless the VAT and duty thing has been "fudged" by the direct supplier. Don't forget that not only are you supposed to pay VAT and duty on individual import but also the delivery company makes a significant change for collecting the tax. Paying a bit more for local delivery and support is probably worth it given just how complicated retro-fit can get if things don't hook up relatively simply. They also supply servos and drive kits so, presumably, you get a turnkey package ready to fit and certain to work assuming you get the wiring right. Having downloaded the various manuals for direct from China units I figure guaranteed to work is worth a couple or three hundred pounds over ordering what ought to go from on-line specifications. In wage slave days I had a certain professional background in similar sorts of stuff so I don't frighten easily but full DIY looks too much hassle. Mimbling around t'net I'm amazed how hard folk are willing to work in order to get something going. Maybe its age but I expect this sort of computer stuff to just work. OK it might not do exactly what one might expect but it should at least do its thing like the book says.

Major question mark for any of the sophisticated systems is availability of posts for CAM software. Fusion 360 looks to be the most likely requirement for neophytes.

Clive.

Who's is currently taking a serious look at going from a manual Bridgeport to proper CNC in the near future.

Edited By Clive Foster on 10/01/2017 18:56:10

Edited By Clive Foster on 10/01/2017 18:56:51

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

We started making PC independent CNC controllers here in Australia and also have online documentation. We have Lathe, Mill and Plasma versions with up to 5 axis control.

Online Documentation Link

Video by Neo7CNC: VIDEO

 

Please email us at support@hindtechnology.com for any queries

Edited By Jat Grewal on 10/01/2017 20:57:29

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Jat Grewal on 10/01/2017 20:55:49:

We have Lathe, Mill and Plasma versions with up to 5 axis control.

Online Documentation Link

Not according to your documentation, they haven't been released yet.

Also does lathe accept multi line encoders and not single pulse ?

Although you don't need a PC you need everything else like monitor, keyboard, mouse etc so it's hardly saving anything.

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

John,

All controllers upto 3 axis have been released and only the 4th and 5th axis versions are due for release this month.

Yes you can connect an encoder with A,B and Z singlas on the spindle for threading. Please note that an encoder is only required for threading.

The reason we have a separate monitor and keyboard is that the user has the choice to use any type and in case of any replacement the users can replace the screen or keyboard themselves.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

At the moment [ things might change ] its an expensive untried piece of kit that still requires all the clutter the stand alone controllers have managed to do away with.

Sorry but just my views.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by richardandtracy on 10/01/2017 09:51:17:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/09/2016 14:13:25:

John's just popped round to show me the magic box, just PSU, box, stepper driver and a stepper on X happily whirring through a program that's been uploaded to it.

I've asked him to pull together an article on these boxes to answer the questions and provide an introduction for those not familiar with CNC.

Neil

Neil,

Has the article been published yet (may have missed it – repeatedly because I've looked) or is it pending [and if so roughly when]?

Regards,

Richard.

John?

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

John, no need to be sorry mate, everyone's views are very important and I myself started designing these after having too many issues with PC based controllers and I might have my own point of view but also need to have everyone's take on this.

If you can please spare a couple of minutes and share what you think would be a good price point for the units and also what you like and dislike about the units the this can really help us understand what you as a user want so that we can keep improving the designs.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/01/2017 23:34:09:

Posted by richardandtracy on 10/01/2017 09:51:17:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/09/2016 14:13:25:

John's just popped round to show me the magic box, just PSU, box, stepper driver and a stepper on X happily whirring through a program that's been uploaded to it.

I've asked him to pull together an article on these boxes to answer the questions and provide an introduction for those not familiar with CNC.

Neil

Neil,

Has the article been published yet (may have missed it – repeatedly because I've looked) or is it pending [and if so roughly when]?

Regards,

Richard.

John?

Sorry Neil, the courting has been getting in the way, plus blowing the engine up in the Donald over Christmas on the "Great trek North " TM

Normal service should be resumed from next week on.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Jat

I have a PC controlled engraver/router. It's all about ease of use, making the most of limited time & maximising equipment life.

Standard keyboards, monitors & mice do not survive well in a workshop. In 2 years I'm on my 3rd pc, 2nd monitor, 2nd mouse & third keyboard. The keyboard picks up all sorts of crud even when covered up. The wires trail and get snagged.

Then the single skin steel roof of my workshop gets condensation & drips on cold days. I put plastic sheeting over the top, and the puddles dip all over the place, between the separate units making plastic sheet removal hazardous. Even then the equipment under the sheeting gets condensation on its surface. Not good for monitors etc. designed for non-condensing conditions in the home. So, if I take the things into the house to protect them from workshop conditions, I have loose bits I need to store somewhere in the house and have to find a way to placate an annoyed wife. Then to use the cnc, I need to load myself up with this stuff, put a bag over it and walk to the end of the garden, in the dark, in a howling gale, pelting with rain, re-assemble the machine and suddenly 50% of my available machining time is gone, so it's almost time to disassemble it & bring it back to the house without ever having started doing anything. Pointless, irritating & timewasting.

Basically, home computer equipment, whether accessories or peripherals are not workshop compatible. That's the point. I cannot be the only one with these sorts of problems.

If it's possible – as with the Chinese controllers mentioned with built-in screen, data entry & memory stick port – to do away with having to cart all the computer gubbins back & forth and have it all in one workshop conditions-proof box, then you are a long way down the road to making happy bunny's of us all. Especially if it can use any size micro SD/USB for the program so the data transfer will be future proof for the next 5/10 years.

Regards,

Richard.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by Muzzer on 10/01/2017 17:28:55:

Depends how far you want to go. $800 plus delivery will get you one of these with loads of encoders, 4-axis control etc. There are lathe and milling versions, 2, 3 and 4 axis.

This one looks similar in many ways. I forget the price but probably very similar. Obviously the price varies according to how many channels you want and you can also buy additional panels, MPG etc.

The Chinglish varies in strength too and some of the Western users appear to have done their own translations.

The Tomatech 3 axis lathe controller (model TAC-1003T) is available on Aliexpress: **LINK** for US$588 delivered (plus 20% tax + tax collection ransom). I have never used AliExpress, but I know a number of people who have bought fountain pens successfully using it. Alternatively on the Bay for a tiny bit more: **LINK**

The specs look good for a lathe controller.

Regards,

Richard.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by richardandtracy on 11/01/2017 08:28:14:

Then the single skin steel roof of my workshop gets condensation & drips on cold days. I put plastic sheeting over the top, and the puddles dip all over the place, between the separate units making plastic sheet removal hazardous. Even then the equipment under the sheeting gets condensation on its surface. Not good for monitors etc. designed for non-condensing conditions in the home. So, if I take the things into the house to protect them from workshop conditions, I have loose bits I need to store somewhere in the house and have to find a way to placate an annoyed wife. Then to use the cnc, I need to load myself up with this stuff, put a bag over it and walk to the end of the garden, in the dark, in a howling gale, pelting with rain, re-assemble the machine and suddenly 50% of my available machining time is gone, so it's almost time to disassemble it & bring it back to the house without ever having started doing anything. Pointless, irritating & timewasting.

Basically, home computer equipment, whether accessories or peripherals are not workshop compatible. That's the point. I cannot be the only one with these sorts of problems.

If it's possible – as with the Chinese controllers mentioned with built-in screen, data entry & memory stick port – to do away with having to cart all the computer gubbins back & forth and have it all in one workshop conditions-proof box, then you are a long way down the road to making happy bunny's of us all. Especially if it can use any size micro SD/USB for the program so the data transfer will be future proof for the next 5/10 years.

Regards,

Richard.

Richard in all fairness this isn't an equipment problem we all share but only affects you because of the single skin steel roof.

Do yourself and your tools a favour and spend a weekend gluing 40mm if Kingspan insulation to the underside of the roof. This will improve life for you and your equipment. Any condensation is no good in a workshop but it can be helped quite easily.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Do yourself and your tools a favour and spend a weekend gluing 40mm if Kingspan insulation to the underside of the roof.

Better to provide battens or similar positive support rather than trying to jam in or use glue. Kingspan and foam type insulation sheets seem to compress a bit over time so will fall out if jam fitted even if its almost too tight to shove in. Glue doesn't seem to last more than a few years, say 5 or so, against a condensation prone steel roof. Dunno if cause is the damp getting under, near impossibility of getting roof fully dry before sticking, difficulty of getting full glue line coverage as both roof and sheet aren't super flat or just movement as the roof expands and contracts due to sunlight heating. If it is expansion and contraction might do better with big blobs of silicon rather than glue as being a bit more flexible.

Gotta bite the bullet and re-do my glued on steel insulation in the shop and the jammed in Kingspan between the rafters immediately underneath my new roof. Both done by builder types, with my assistance, disregarding my opinion that the job wouldn't last. No fun in "I told you so" when it means a ton of work for moi to fix.

That said such insulation really makes huge difference. Maybe halves my shop heating bill compared to relying on the 4" of insulation in the walls. Similar effect on heat losses through the house roof. Post extension new roof area pushing double old roof area yet losses through new one are similar to, probably bit less than, old. No regrets from jamming my pedal extremity down and assisting that both be done.

Clive.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

John,

Would it were that simple. it's a 35ft x 15ft open sided shed that I've enclosed with a window wall made from pallet timbers & sheet plastic (cost me 2000 screws from Screwfix). It was originally a kennel for a dog breeder (the previous owner of our house), and was never intended to be anything other than an open building of comparatively short life. I replaced the corrugated cardboard & bitumen roof 8 years ago, and now at least it doesn't rain inside even if the condensation drips.

I am planning to move my cnc stuff into a small brick built granary dating to around 1890 when I have finished dry lining it. That will help the roof condensation situation, I agree. However I must disagree about the problem of dewfall inside an unheated building. If the temp reduces such that you get 100% humidity, dewfall cannot fail to occur. We experienced it in the granary last week (9" brick walls + insulated under the slate roof), foggy outside, it cooled off & we got dewfall in the granary as well as all our sheds & outbuildings. Same happened on my parents' farm in Devon, so it's not unique to Kent. Also, if you soak a machine tool at a low temp (say 0C) in an unheated building, then when the ambient air warms, condensation on the equipment is inevitable until the mass warms up. The only way of ensuring dewfall never occurs is to heat the place – not feasible in most workshops, so computer stuff will always be at risk if designed to be inside a house.

Regards,

Richard.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I suggest you don't turn your computers off.

At least you will have plenty of cereal ports.

:0)

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Do these controllers support servo motors? encoder inputs? tool changers? 4th axis?

The 990T & TAC-1003T are both "open loop" controls that have Step/direction outputs only & no axis feedback provision. There is one analogue output & one encoder input for the spindle. They have a built-in PLC & come with a "standard interface" PLC program that handles a turret (presumably some sort of standard locally produced turret interface), two speed spindle gearbox switching & other, normally expected, functions.

I did find a PLC manual for the 990T, which showed (at a quick read) almost identical functionality as the Fanuc PMC K/L/M used in the 0 series controls (with which I am familiar), with the same signal addresses used (X for inputs, Y for outputs, F & G for NC/PLC communication, R for freely assignable flags/markers etc.), the same command set & function blocks etc. So pretty much any type of functionality that could be achieved with a Fanuc PLC would appear (at first glance) to be available with these – even the processing times (Level 1 program @ 8 ms) are the same. The bigger problem seems to be limited I/O – I didn't find if the 990T could be expanded, but the TAC-1003T mentions additional modules are available to give an extra 16 inputs & 16 outputs – not a lot in the greater scheme of things, but some of the standard I/O could be re-nominated from the as-supplied PLC program if not required.

From an axis drive point of view, Chinese brusheless servo drives seem to have the option of step/direction control as well as analogue speed control as standard. I got a Bonmet 3Nm brushless drive & motor for a project at work that had this. The drive also has outputs for drive error (loss of steps) and a 1 rotation pulse signal derived from the motor feedback encoder – the control has inputs for each axis for these signals, so the control gets to know from the drive if it has stalled & to give more accurate referencing. A sort of "part closed loop-ish" operation, but not the same as a "normal" closed loop on an industrial control. You could also use one of these controls with normal open loop stepper drives, though these would not have the "lost steps" warning or give as accurate referencing.

Still look like an interesting proposition, though.

Nigel B

BTW, the £17 USB CNC board from Ebay didn't turn up within the estimated delivery time (still hasn't) & was refunded. I have yet to get around to ordering another to have a play.

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