Alternative to PC based Cnc controllers

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Yes it was the manufacturers I meant were missing out. I thought the inbuilt display a bonus for the applications I was thinking of, like small industrial oven process control (not everything is CNC) greenhouse control, central heating control, alarm system, that sort of thing.

Older PC beside me loading Linux over windows NT. Fingers crossed the 10G drive and 250meg memory is enough. It didn't self select to install the desktop so knows it's tight.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 02/10/2016 22:12:59:

Yes it was the manufacturers I meant were missing out. …

.

My apologies, Bazyle … I thought that by 'everybody' you meant all of us here.

MichaelG.

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

John,

Thanks for such a detailed email and also for sharing your experience.

For me this CNC journey started while making CNC machines in my garage just for fun and while doing that I used PC based systems which gave me a lot of problem. So being a programmer I started making my own system mainly for fun and over time people started asking me if they can have the units.

We are stiff very new to this industry and rather than business its more of a hobby thing and we try to make things as people ask us. I do understand that simple things like wizards could have be called something else but its what mainly people told us in meetups or at maker spaces.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Done properly, this is where the USB or Network connected controllers make a good alternative. All the time-critical motion control stuff is taken care of while the host computer feeds the controller g-code as required and also services the display & keyboard inputs etc.

Wiring up & configuring the system isn't really any different to either of the £150 or £400-500 self-contained alternatives, but whichever approach is chosen it'll have to be fitted into a housing of some sort, which I find can be quite time consuming in itself.

Martin.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Jat,

It can and I dare say it will be improved on but at the moment you are lacking features but your pricing is not into the hobby market range and you don't yet have enough features to interest small business.

Martin,

That's where we are now with Mach3, Mach 4 and Linux but unfortunately there isn't a complete package and no one talks to anyone else.

Mach 3 was about the best option or Linux on the parallel port as they were self contained.

However as soon as you throw a 3rd party supplier into the mix, everything goes pear shaped.

Mach 4 is possibly the worst case scenario in that as a controller it can't stand on it's own feet and relies on an outside company to supply the external controller card be it Hicon, CS Labs, Pokeys or the smooth stepper.

The smooth stepper is three weeks away from doing lathe threading but it was still three weeks away in 2012.

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

John, I can understand what you mean and appreciate the great feedback.

At the moment its been tough to work fulltime as a programmer and keep working on MASSO, I have been trying to push more monthly sales so that more time goes into MASSO.

As you just mentioned, standardizing the hardware was one of the key requirements and we have tried to address this issues as much as we could in our design with all standardized hardware on one board.

You might be able to give some great feedback in regards to pricing, some of my clients have been saying that if we go for a subscription model then it will be better. Basically sell the units at half or even less cost £150 – £200 and then have a £15 monthly subscription that will include free updates. What do you think about this from clients point of view?

Thanks for you time

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Jat,

I have no idea how that would work ?

What is to stop someone buying he £200 unit and then not paying the subscription. Problem with the hobby game is 10% of people accept they are paying for time and goods but the other 90% want everything for nothing.

When programs like Fusion 360 are free to hobby and the maker movement is all about open source and getting everything for nothing it is really hard to get returns on your time and effort.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/10/2016 23:42:42:

Jat,

It can and I dare say it will be improved on but at the moment you are lacking features but your pricing is not into the hobby market range and you don't yet have enough features to interest small business.

 

Martin,

That's where we are now with Mach3, Mach 4 and Linux but unfortunately there isn't a complete package and no one talks to anyone else.

Mach 3 was about the best option or Linux on the parallel port as they were self contained.

However as soon as you throw a 3rd party supplier into the mix, everything goes pear shaped.

Mach 4 is possibly the worst case scenario in that as a controller it can't stand on it's own feet and relies on an outside company to supply the external controller card be it Hicon, CS Labs, Pokeys or the smooth stepper.

The smooth stepper is three weeks away from doing lathe threading but it was still three weeks away in 2012.

 

I'd urge anyone doing a CNC build to take a proper look at CNCUSB by PlanetCNC.

The hardware only works with their software, so the whole package is well defined and stable. My system arrived recently and initial tests are thoroughly positive – stepper motors are dead smooth even when the screen display is complex and the computer's busy with other tasks. A green progress bar indicates the size of the buffer containing gcode within the controller during machining, which for me, seems to be topped up by the laptop ( about 7 years old, 1.4 ghz dual core, 2 gig ram) effortlessly.

I think the selection of available gcodes is good and includes almost all the ones John S mentions above – G33 and G76 are included for threading, as are dedicated encoder inputs on the PCB consisting of Index, Channel A & Channel B.

Gcode Wizards…( I know )… are in there too : Round Pocket, Straight Pocket, Drill Array (not circular though), as well as ready defined English, Metric, Trapezoidal & Square threads etc under Lathe Turning.

The screen display is clear, toolbars can be shown as required and it doesn't look like it came out of an amusement arcade.

 

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 03/10/2016 01:13:22

[Dave MartinParticipant @davemartin29320]

Posted by Bazyle on 02/10/2016 22:12:59:

Yes it was the manufacturers I meant were missing out. I thought the inbuilt display a bonus for the applications I was thinking of, like small industrial oven process control (not everything is CNC) greenhouse control, central heating control, alarm system, that sort of thing.

Older PC beside me loading Linux over windows NT. Fingers crossed the 10G drive and 250meg memory is enough. It didn't self select to install the desktop so knows it's tight.

Bazyle – for non-CNC control applications, there are already small PLC controllers with integrated displays, such as the £270 Cubloc CT1820 with graphics, touch screen display, programmable with scripts or ladder logic; other smaller ones available which could be used to control an ATC etc.

Dave (no connection with CuBloc other than as a user)

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

Martin (Blowlamp) Have you added a fourth axis to your PlanetCNC?

Please pm if you will share your experiance.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Martin,

What are you running USBCNC on as regards the machine used ?

[BaldricParticipant @baldric]

Posted by John Stevenson on 28/09/2016 17:06:43:
Problem I can see with the Masso unit is they make a big fuss in one of the videos about needing PC, monitor drives all all the other gear, then draw loads of lines to link it up.
They then go on to show the Masso unit connected to a rat's nest when all its done is replaced the PC.

Still needs monitor, keyboard etc.

John,

You mention a rats nest, my understanding is that all the Masso needs is a keyboard, mouse and VDU in addition to the direction/step feed to the motor drivers, I have assumed that all the other systems mentioned would still require separate drivers so the only addition for the Masso compared to the others is the keyboard, mouse and VDU, is this correct? I do agree that the wiring shown does not look neat and tidy but I thought this was more down to the installer than the number of connections needed.
​Baldric

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Rod Ashton on 03/10/2016 08:35:42:

Martin (Blowlamp) Have you added a fourth axis to your PlanetCNC?

Please pm if you will share your experiance.

Rod.

I've not used the fourth axis as yet – is there something in particular you need to achieve?

Martin.

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

Martin – On the upcoming todo list. Wondered if it was easy to setup.

Rod

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Rod Ashton on 03/10/2016 18:36:41:

Martin – On the upcoming todo list. Wondered if it was easy to setup.

Rod

Rod.

I just changed my configuration settings for you.

I haven't cut anything or even run the machine, but it was just a matter of changing the machine type to Rotary under Settings > General and then adding the 'A' axis under Settings > Axes.

Here's a demo rotary axis screen shot of a turbine.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

For the lathe folks, here's a pic of the controller set up for use with a lathe.

To get the Z & X axes in the right orientation for a lathe had me scratching my head for a while, but I got there in the end by going to Settings > User interface and entering 270 degrees into the X & Z boxes under Rotate. The manual suggests entering 90 degrees in the Y box although this means having to use Front View, whereas my way allows Top View to be used, which is more intuitive to me.

Martin.

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Martin, PM'd you.

Simon

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Martin,

That all looks very tidy … Hardware and Display

Two things leave me 'nervous' : MS Windows, and the 210page Software Manual.

**LINK**

Hardware

Isn't that where this thread started ?

MichaelG.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Yes Micheal.

Because we are dealing with the hobby, small industrial user it takes in all types and also all types of budget restrains.

Everyone wants something different, they all have different goals. Some have far more time than money and some have far more money than time.

In giving various talks it soon became apparent that for some CNC instead of being a tool had become that persons hobby, the MK l leading up to make the MK ll and so on.

There will always be a niche for the guy with hardly any budget cobbling a setup from an Arduino and whatever else he can lay his hands on thru the PC based guys on whatever system THEY prefer up to the throw the cheque book at it guys and lets get it done.

This thread has been very interesting in that it's brought to light new options like the stand alone controllers and Martin mentioning Planet CNC. This was one I knew about but didn't know they had moved on.

In fact yesterday I downloaded the software and had a play, got stumped on lathe setup so fired a help request off on the forum which sort of explained the problem but I was able to sort it. My next question was are there going to be any more wizards for the lathe as they only do threading.

The answer was " Currently we are very busy with other software goals, but we are aware of the lathe feature importance."

Which in software speak means don't hold your breath. so as regards lathe, which at the moment is my area of interest Planet CNC is on the shelf with the rest of the unfinished software and hardware manufacturers.

So in a nutshell as long as this thread keeps people interested and looking it's doing a good job. These stand alone controllers have been on about 3 or 4 forums I visit and I did read on one but now can't find it that one of the big box importers was selling a CNC with one of these on but I can't find it and they may have been getting mixed up with a Siemens controller

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

There appear to be several different entry points into usbcnc:

• Mk3 9 axis board @ 219 Euros + VAT (about £240 shipped)
• Mk3/4 4 axis board @ 119 Euros + VAT (about £135 shipped)
• MK1 DIY PCB + PIC @ 21 Euros + VAT (about £32 shipped + supply your own components)
• MK1 Sky Studio MK1 version £42.29 (pennybuying.com)
• MK1 Chinese 'clone' @ £13-18 (ebay)

All of these options require a USB controller license (per board) from Planet CNC @ 69 Euros + VAT (about £73) or you are limited to 25 lines of Gcode, the software itself is free.

All of thes options will also require a PC/laptop/virtual machine to run the software – a cheap old laptop or netbook would probably be more than good enough based on the required PC specs.

The MK1 and Mk3/4 boards seems to give pretty much the same connectivity as a PC with a single parallel port, the MK3 board is required for anything that requires more inputs/outputs.

Many of the add-on boards look to be a little spendy – 22 Euros + VAT (about £23 + shipping) for an opto isolator, 10 or 16 pin header, DB25 connector, etc where there are less than £2.00 of parts on a board which itself would cost less than £1.00 – I don't mind paying a little for a quality item, but these prices are pushing it somewhat and the boards are easily within the realms of DIY.

A major plus is the use of an off-PC processor for the real-time processing, as previously mentioned, the PC is just a buffer for supplying Gcode and a user interface. As such they offer a similar solution/price point to Mach3 + Smooth Stepper or LinuxCNC + Mesa FPGA, with the added bonus that the hardware and software are from the same supplier and the PC specs don't really matter.

Downside is that you still need a PC an OS and an application.

Edited By Zebethyal on 04/10/2016 11:40:08

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Only the first two listed will handle an encoder and there are features missing off the Chinese clones so be very aware.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Do the dedicated Chinese controllers have conversational or wizard features? I thought it might be worth asking on the PlanetCNC forum to see if we could get some of the more useful ones included.

Martin.

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

The Mk3 and Mk3/4 USBCNC boards also appear to use the same chip and mostly the same board layout, so you are effectively just paying to unlock the additional functionality in the software.

The Sky Studio MK1 has a few enhancements over the original MK1 and other 'clones' including optocouplers, separate power supplies, additional regulators and transient voltage suppression, but the same microcontroller, memory and pinout restrictions.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Zebethyal on 04/10/2016 14:00:35:

The Mk3 and Mk3/4 USBCNC boards also appear to use the same chip and mostly the same board layout, so you are effectively just paying to unlock the additional functionality in the software.

The Sky Studio MK1 has a few enhancements over the original MK1 and other 'clones' including optocouplers, separate power supplies, additional regulators and transient voltage suppression, but the same microcontroller, memory and pinout restrictions.

The Mk3 is a 9 Axis board, it also has a network connection option as well as quite a few more features like analogue inputs. I think the software is the same for all controllers.

Martin.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

A major plus is the use of an off-PC processor for the real-time processing, as previously mentioned, the PC is just a buffer for supplying Gcode and a user interface. As such they offer a similar solution/price point to Mach3 + Smooth Stepper or LinuxCNC + Mesa FPGA, with the added bonus that the hardware and software are from the same supplier and the PC specs don't really matter.

I'm a big fan of the LinuxCNC and Mesa approach, as:

1) the PC specs don't really matter, as the "real time, fast" thread for handling the olde LPT port is not required;

2) The Mesa boards seem to be about half the price of the Mach-3/4 based solutions;

3) They are used all over; this is the sw/hw combo that Tormach have moved to, for very good reason.

So, with an old PC, monitor, keyboard, (all cast-offs), and free software, and a not-too-expensive interface board, I can configure to my hearts content – adding switches, MPGs, spindle monitoring, DROs, "go back to zero" functions, incredible lathe threading, etc, etc. why not?

Does it take too much time to configure? IMHO, for me its 90% getting the machine made, 10% configuring the software, and none of these other boxes help with installing ball screws and steppers and encoders and…

Another JohnS

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