Alternative to PC based Cnc controllers

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

Hi

Regarding the questions about MASSO, please see the below:

1. Yes the system will need a monitor and keyboard and it was designed this way so that if any of these gets damaged then the user can easily change them, whereas if all that was integrated then its hard to fix.
2. All the required electronics for inputs and motor driver PULSE & DIRECTION signals are built in the system and you wont need anything else such as motion cards.
3. On the inputs there are individual 4 pin optocouplers in sockets and if damaged they can be replaced. For outputs if the driver chip is damaged then definitely is has to be resoldered.
4. http://www.hindtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/Documentation/Mill/Replace%20Opto.png
5. Closed loop servo or stepper drives can also work with the unit and we will also be releasing a software update that will monitor each drives alarm signal and stop the machine and display the reason of alarm on screen.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Thank you for the link Michael, yes that’s the video. Steve has only had this control for just over a week and this was the first thread, no prior test runs.

When you consider that we have both been literally years attempting this and finally do it in under a week then it shows the simplicity.

Before someone chimes in and says Linux will thread I have to agree but the Linux screens are not suitable for selling to third parties users.

I did pay, commercial rates to have a Linux guru come down for a day to set a lathe up on Linux with Path Pilot screens but I’m afraid that even though they said it would be easy, then went home, leaving an unfinished machine.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For my education …

Does the Chinese system, that John & Steve are recommending, have any connection with FANUC, and/or any 'similarity' to a FANUC system. ?

I am reminded of the popular 'Chinese Scales' which were cloned from the Sylvac system; but I don't wish to jump to conclusions.

MichaelG.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Michael,
Most g code is called Fanuc compatable, a bit like Hoover as a vacuum cleaner.
It’s never the simple move commands but the more exotic commands that can run things like a lathe chuck scroll with one line of code.
These Chinese lathe controllers seem to mimic a Fanuc 21T very closely.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks, John

Consider me [a little more] educated.

MichaelG.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by John Stevenson on 29/09/2016 20:17:29:
These Chinese lathe controllers seem to mimic a Fanuc 21T very closely.

Fanuc manuals seem to be available here.

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

Could any user please comment on the PlanetCNC 3/4 unit.

Your experiences appreciated.

Please pm if you do not care to post.

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

We have a couple of Chinese 900 series Syntec systems at work, they came with dedicated post processors, however when looking at the files they are very similar to Fanuc, also the Fanuc ones drive em ok, perhaps they used Fanuc as the basis for there system early on and stuck with it.

Shaun

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Fanuc are the largest manufacturer of CNC controls in the world and, of the worldwide population of CNC machine tools in industry, the last figure I saw suggested was that Fanuc controls were fitted to over 60%.

As so many operators are familiar with programming, setting & operating Fanuc controls, it makes sense for smaller manufactures to aim for "Fanuc compatibilty" to gain acceptance. The video link of the Chinese turning control shows a marked similarity in display & keyboard layout to a Fanuc, so it may well have similar methods of setting & operation too – I had a look on the Newkye website but couldn't find manuals to download to have a look.

Fanuc equipment is very reliable, but rather pricey if you want to buy "one off" packages – I used to work retrofitting CNC systems & we were paying twice as much as Bridgeport (for example) for a Fanuc control + drives package. Difference was we bought maybe 3 or 4 systems a year & Bridgeport bought 30 or 40 a month.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Nigel, can’t do anything at moment as out on site but Funnily enough I have a new printed manual with me. As soon as I get to a computer, might not be until Sunday I’ll upload a link. Steve Blackmoor has virtually single handed took 3 manuals for this controller from 3 different companies, collated and de-chinglishised them. This is only lathe BTW.

Edited By John Stevenson on 30/09/2016 13:45:59

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Thanks John,

It would be interesting to have a look. I have an ex-industrial non-ATC Denford Triac carcass in storage that will require some form of control. It was originally driven by a Fanuc 0M-A with some German make I was unfamiliar with brushless drives.My former employer purchased the machine for the control & drives to sell as spares & I did a deal on the carcass. I bought steppers & drives from Arc at one of the Harrogate shows & imported a CNC4PC C11G parallel port interface card intending to use Mach 3 & then the project stalled. Looking at the project again now I am tending more towards a stand-alone USB motion control interface – I have GRBL V0.9 up & running on an Arduino Uno but would ultimately like to add a 4th axis. GRBL development seems to have stalled & it didn't appear last time I looked that adding 4th axis capability would be along any time soon (if at all). I also have a Chester Mini lathe to convert to CNC – ballscrews, steppers, drives & breakout board all to hand – Round Tuit gone AWOL !

On the subject of manuals – you don't have access to a Cincinnati A2100 Installation & Setup manual do you ? Trying to add a 4th axis to a Sabre 750 at work at the moment & it isn't playing nicely – getting info on a 20 year old, low volume, in-house manufactured, PC-based control is not straightforward.

 

Edit for spelling

Edited By Nigel B on 30/09/2016 16:10:04

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

NigelB – I've not used the site before but the one I linked to above shows an A2100 wiring schematic and an Arrow 2100E operating manual. I don't know if either are what you are after but they seem reasonably relevant.

Murray

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Thanks Murray,

I have the machine schematics & all the normally supplied A2100 "user" manuals, but could do with the OEM manuals. I have a contact who used to work for Cincinnati in Birmingham who is looking into this & the manuals appear to be available as hard copies in the States (though I have not enquired about costs) if I get that desperate. Cincinnati sold off their in-house controls division and, after a couple of owners, it ended up finally being bought by Siemens – who shut it down.

It may end up easier to swap the installation onto another machine with a Heidenhain control, but the Sabre doesn't get much use as it is (all bar one other milling machines in the works has a Heidenhain control & the operators prefer using those) and the intention was to dedicate the Sabre to one customer's requirements. I have designed & had made a trunnion table to fit the Jones & Shipman rotary – with a vice mounted on this, 3 sides of a part can be presented to spindle & 5 sides machined to minimise setups. One of the other machines has an identical J&S table and, as luck would have it, identical Tee slot dimensions & spacing. The easy way out is to fit my trunnion table onto the other machine & swap the existing servo motor onto it, but that will leave the Sabre disappearing under an ever deeper coating of graphite dust !

Nigel

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

Nigel,

You can have a look at this controller. This unit has all the hardware built in and you wont even need a PC or motion cards.

Documentation: http://www.hindtechnology.com/documentation/

 

Clickable link added for the documentation.

Edited By John Stevenson on 02/10/2016 15:08:24

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

That's interesting, Jat

… I like the use of a VGA screen

It's a pity that the demonstrator's 'pointing' is all going on behind the overlaid image of the screen though

MichaelG.

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

Please try these links:

**LINK**

**LINK**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqwgGFIUNIg

**LINK**

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Jat, all the Masso is doing is swapping that unit for a PC. You still need monitor, keyboard and mouse. Also what happens if a drive fails or you need say 7 or 10amp output ?

Edited By John Stevenson on 01/10/2016 16:16:21

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

John,

Looking through the posted documentation link, it is apparent that the "drive" connections are just step & direction outputs to external drives, not an internal limited current output direct to a motor.

It looks promising, but is very obviously in the early stages of development as many "features" (like more than 3 axis functionality) are "to follow" – which may or may not happen any time soon. A 4 axis unit lists at $Australian 717, or about £425 according to XE.com – add in postage, customs, Vat etc. & it will be a bit pricy when it gets here.

Can't say I am a fan of calling Cycles "Wizards" – why not just make them as Fanuc-compatible G-code cycles ? And why use M28 for "Return to home position" rather than the usual G28 ?

Something to keep an eye on to see how it develops, rather than a "must have" for me as it stands.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Nigel, must admit I had not followed the documentation up as I’m away with only a phone.
Personally I can’t see what one of these units has over a PC, you still have the rat’s nest of leads, a new OS to learn. The Chinese lathe controller I have bought and remember this is only 2 axis cost virtually ?400, landed and duty paid. Not researed the 4 axisill units yet but I expect them to work out about ?450 to ?480 for a complete unit less drivers and motors.
These all use a system easily recognised by any professional user.

[Jat GrewalParticipant @jatgrewal91795]

John and Nigel,

• The 4th & 5th axis units share the same hardware and in fact we only have one hardware model. The only difference is in the softwares and the software can be changed or updated anytime by simply putting a new update file on the USB pen drive.
• The 4th & 5th axis softwares are being tested at the moment and will be released in about 4-8 weeks, we are currently a bit busy with kickstarter and will be back at the new releases soon.
• Regarding the new OS: That's the beauty of this design, we actually don't run these on any OS, the entire system software has been designed to only be a CNC controllers. We have made the looks a bit like a PC software to make it easy for users. There is noting to setup on the system such as drivers or installing software, we provide one software file and that one file itself is everything including all the motion and graphics software.
• Currently we are doing a kickstarter project and we are offering units on discounts plus if there is a distributor interested in UK then we will be happy to provide the units in UK through them.
• **LINK**

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Reply mainly to Jal but also to anyone else who's interested.

OK managed to get to a computer as opposed to my phone which is so limited for reading and replying.

First for Jal's sake a bit of history. I have been involved with CNC and conversions from around 1995 and total conversions must be well over 100 by now and this is from hobby the mid sized industrial. Add to this I have been deeply involved in design and development and support of the Sieg KX1 and KX3 model with a bit on the KC4 and KC6 lathe. No idea what total sales are on these, only Sieg knows, but have to be in the high thousands.

On the Sieg side I also deliver and setup machines for users who cannot do this, provide training and up until a few years ago we used to attend shows round the UK where we ran the KX1 and KX3 under power and spoke to people. We also did lectures on the advantage of CNC and other issues.
The end result is I have a decent understanding of the hobby / small industrial market.

Now I have read the documentation and it's raised some questions but firstly let me apologise for the error on thinking it contained drivers.
First thing I'd like to point out is when they compare Masso to what's out there are regards PC's

They say for the PC "Initial setup and wiring is time consuming and requires specialist skills" and compared to the Masso " Unbox, plug in and GO!!"

I think this is grossly unfair and a poor comparison because the drivers, limit switches spindle etc do not wire them selves up. The only thing you can plug in is a keyboard and monitor.

So first views of the screen and what I wrongly called the OS, reasonably laid out if anything a bit sparce given that the graphics take up most of the allocated room. Why that is I don't know because if you don't know what you are cutting before you start you should not be stood in front of a machine.

Wizards, and yes what a horrible name. It's conversational programming, why not call it such. Masso puts emphasis on "Industrial grade " and then uses a naff term like Wizards ?
They are quite crude. Threading wizard for example needs to know the OD of the thread, start end length and pitch which is fine, then it need to know the root diameter of the thread. Who has that to hand, what's wrong with a drop down box populated with the most popular threads and allow it to use these values ?

Mill wizards, again crude to the extent that bolt hole circle is missing.

G Codes, very few exist. No G41 /G42 tool off set, No G43/G44 tool length off set. No G53 to G59 codes although you can set an off set in the tool table but can't call it via G code.
Lathe threading is G32 only, no G76 or G92 so no control over infeed angles or pull out.

Two years ago if correctly priced it could have been a breath of fresh air on the scene but at this point in time I feel it's too little to late with what is coming out of China.

Ok it has far more features than the £150 Chinese 4 axis controller but it's a lot more money.
Retail of this for a mill is $717 AUS which on todays rate works out to £423 UKP, add £30 for shipping, £15 for DHL / Fedex handling and £87.60 VAT and you have a total of £561.60 Now add monitor and keyboard etc and you have about £700 UKP

So if you want a cheap solution £150 will give it you and if you want true Industry standard with all in one box then this will do the job.

**LINK**

Direct from the factory these are about £450 to £480 landed and duty paid.

 

Edited By John Stevenson on 02/10/2016 17:39:45

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Seems to me everybody is missing a trick here. There are things like Arduino and Pie that are too domestic, lack power and need a rat's nest of breakouts, Then there are more powerful micro/mini headless (no video keys etc) PCs aimed at music servers with no built in I/O.
The £150 job combines processor and I/O and basic display, and the more expensive are ditto with maybe more grunt. Hooray! There are lots of applications for small industrial controllers which exist but they are at industrial prices because of low volume. If these self contained mini units could just come with a basic bootloader and the CNC bit on a USB stick then it opens the market up for many more uses.

Got an old PC loaded up with Linuxcnc yesterday but the damn thing turns out to be one with known impossible latency issues – can still practice play though.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 02/10/2016 19:36:27:

Seems to me everybody is missing a trick here. …

The £150 job combines processor and I/O and basic display, and the more expensive are ditto with maybe more grunt. Hooray! …

.

I beg to differ, Bazyle … That trick has not been missed.

However, I think the manufacturer might have missed a trick … Nice as full integration might be; I personally would be much happier with the facility to Use a larger external display [and maybe a keyboard of sorts].

If you can point me to the VGA or HDMI connector, I would be delighted.

MichaelG.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

In which case Michael the Masso unit is right up your street

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/10/2016 20:57:43:

In which case Michael the Masso unit is right up your street

.

That's what I was thinking, John … Until you pointed out its shortcomings.

MichaelG.

[Author]

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