Alternative to PC based Cnc controllers

[Paul BarrettParticipant @paulbarrett57424]

I am also interested in these controllers as an alternative to PC's and I think they will be the future. I am especially interested in one for the CNC laser i am building. I see there are several available and most lasers machines from China seem to use them. There is only one problem for me though and that is controlling the z axis for the lifting table.

My machine is about 80% built and I am having trouble deciding how to raise the table. The table is 1200 x 600mm and is raised and lowered by screw jacks and guides at each corner. My original idea was to drive all screw jacks using one motor and a toothed belt but I have not seen one big enough in gt2, gt3, htd3 etc. It would need to be over 4 metres long. My current idea is to use 4 motors, one for each jack.

I assume I would use 4 drivers with the 4 motors. So, can I connect 4 drivers to one output from the controller? If not then I assume these stand alone controllers will not work for me. I guess I would have to use a breakout board with at least 6 axis so I can slave 4 together and use a PC with some form of software.

Anyone got any ideas please.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

is it possible to use a slaved follower – use a stepper motor to move a reference away from table but measure this movement and servo control a large motor (maybe heavily geared) to move toothed belt to close the gap – I presume toothed belt arranged rather like these router lifters used in woodworking to precisely set height of tool – obviously any movement would be slow and rate controlled

Large torque at slow speed with possibility of full software control might fit a large direct drive motor (discussed in an earlier thread maybe even off an old washing machine!)

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Paul – have a look at the Brammer drive belts website – link – they do some belts as standard to pitch lengths in excess of 4 metres, but also do open end belting on the roll that can be joined by either spicing to make a continuous belt, or with a mechanical fastening if it can run in a back and forth motion without making a complete circuit. I was looking at similar material recently with a view to motorising a theatre stage curtain, and at the time the prices I was seeing were very reasonable.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Wasn't Sam trying to point out the flexibility so that if someone wants a Tormach clone screen they can (copyright aside) make one, or get someone to interested in doing it. Of course too much choice can be a problem for some.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by John Stevenson on 20/09/2016 21:02:15:

Posted by blowlamp on 20/09/2016 13:01:25:

It seems that PlanetCNC and UCCNC now support fully synchronised threading as well as rigid tapping.

Martin.

.

Thank you for those links Martin, I wasn't aware that either could do threading on lathe.

However having spent nearly an hour perusing both websites and down loading both hardware and software manuals for both I'm non plussed at what they can do. This is starting to get familiar ??

Planet CNC first.

The board says it can take spindle encoder in but in the 35 page manual of which 7 pages are spent telling you how to wire all the different types of limits switch [ which aren't actually needed for the machine to run] but no explanation of how to wire the encoder in and not even is it just index pulse or multi line. I suspect it's index pulse only which is not a lot of good for accurate work

UCCNC next

Again hardly any information other than a video of threading with a felt tipped pan. The hardware manual is 21 pages long 19 of which tell you how to connect it up to the ethernet port, [ is it THAT hard ? and if it is WHY ? ]

Then the last two pages tell you what the terminals are in flowing terms like output 1, 2,3 etc for Port 1, poert 2 is identical but no a clue where to connect to ?

So please excuse me if I don't throw 215 Euros for the UCCNC board and software plus breakout board and another 263 Euro for the Planet offering.

I don't think the shelf can stand any more white elephants.

Seriously lads it's this total lack of support that is killing this. They know if or how good it works but it's a closely guarded secret.

John S and others that may be interested.

The 27 page PlanetCNC USB hardware PDF manual is here.

Page 7 has a good picture of the board showing the various connections quite clearly, page 11 illustrates the spindle index and encoder A & B terminals equally well.

The 210 page software PDF manual is here.

Looking thorough the G-Code list shows implementation of G33 & G76 threading support on pages 179 & 184 respectively.

I've not looked deeply into the capabilities of the UNCCNC system but it appears to be roughly equal with that from PlanetCNC.

While the other Chinese made self-contained units look really nice, they're still going to need wiring up and have a multitude of parameters set before they can be used. I think this part is going to be just as difficult for a inexperienced installer as something like the systems I've highlighted.

Martin.

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

@Paul,

For a laser controller, one of the popular DSP options is the AWC807C – I bought mine last year from SanWeiHouse on AliExpress for $283.10 (about £190.00 at the time) with free shipping via DHL to the UK. It arrived in 7 days.

It avoided customs attention because they stuck it in a battered second hand box and declared it at $10.00!

I hasten to add that at no point did I even hint at any of this subterfuge to the seller – this was all their own doing.

I bought the 'lite' version of the controller for use on my buildlog.net laser cutter, it has control for 4 axes and 2 lasers. The full version costs a bit more and has control for 6 axes and 4 lasers.

My Table is only 560x410mm, so a bit smaller than yours, and uses a 1524mm 762tooth GT2-2 belt to drive 4 lengths of M6 studding via a 3.2:1 reduction from the Z axis stepper.

It may also be possible for you to run 2 motors off the same driver using a reduction drive and a looped belt for each – I use a single StepStick driver for both Nema 17 motors on the Z axis of my 3D printer without issue.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Paul Barrett on 21/09/2016 21:02:49:

I am also interested in these controllers as an alternative to PC's and I think they will be the future. I am especially interested in one for the CNC laser i am building. I see there are several available and most lasers machines from China seem to use them. There is only one problem for me though and that is controlling the z axis for the lifting table.

My machine is about 80% built and I am having trouble deciding how to raise the table. The table is 1200 x 600mm and is raised and lowered by screw jacks and guides at each corner. My original idea was to drive all screw jacks using one motor and a toothed belt but I have not seen one big enough in gt2, gt3, htd3 etc. It would need to be over 4 metres long. My current idea is to use 4 motors, one for each jack.

I assume I would use 4 drivers with the 4 motors. So, can I connect 4 drivers to one output from the controller? If not then I assume these stand alone controllers will not work for me. I guess I would have to use a breakout board with at least 6 axis so I can slave 4 together and use a PC with some form of software.

Anyone got any ideas please.

.

 

 

Paul the DSP controllers seem to be the answer to lasers as regards controlling the wattage of the tube. From reading post about Mach 3 and other controllers lasers are not easy.

 

Art Fenerty who originally wrote Mach3 sold out and had a rest for a while and then wrote Gearotic, the gear generating program, this has branched off to be more clocked orientated but recently as Art also has a laser he's written a controller program especially for laser called Augie. Stands for Argument Machine something or other.

 

If you go onto the main Gearotic web site at http://www.gearotic.com select forum from the left hand menu and then scroll down and Augie has it's own sub forum.

 

HTH

Edited By John Stevenson on 22/09/2016 21:18:18

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

"Now Mr Bond, as soon as we have installed the Linux drivers, wired up the interface, adjusted the steppers, debugged the G-code, re-installed the Linux drivers, calibrated each axis and found the correct control screen, you are doomed!"

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

and to add more to the suspense, but also disabling the automatic emergency stop to begin the slice'omatic program.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 22/09/2016 22:46:30

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/09/2016 22:00:55:

"Now Mr Bond, as soon as we have installed the Linux drivers, wired up the interface, adjusted the steppers, debugged the G-code, re-installed the Linux drivers, calibrated each axis and found the correct control screen, you are doomed!"

.

So he's safe for a few years ?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

link to a manual for one of the cheap controllers which is selling on ebay uk as " 4 Axis CNC Controller Breakout Board Engraving Machine Control System Set "

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

heh – it seems everyone is looking for a silver bullet. That magic device that does exactly what they want and how they want and it has to be easy.

The thing is with all these new systems you hope that there are not any bugs. Look at how long mach3 was developed – it still has bugs. Will those bugs get fixed? No. Mach4 is so new that IMHO I would not trust it to run any of my machines. I have enough trouble making stupid mistakes then having to worry about the control doing it for me. One of our machines has 8 tons of cutting force.

I guess I really don't understand why if a system is working and is stable and free – time wouldn't be spent to figure it out. Even if the GUI isn't pretty. Do you think everyone using linuxcnc are computer experts? Again – it isn't rocket science. How much time have people spent working on or waiting for threading/rigid tapping on other systems? Chased around USB bugs? Single index threading problems? Unwanted/random motion? Path following issues?

This is exactly why Tormach went with linuxcnc – it wasn't just the threading issue. From feedback that I get from forum post – people love it. Is it the interface? partly – mainly it is the stability of it. Many times now people talk about how they used to bite their finger nails when they used to run programs helicopter mom'ing their cnc's – now they have no problems running lights out.

Why didn't Tormach use any of the existing ui's? A few reasons. They wanted their own product. They wanted something that would transition people from Mach. People that have gotten used to mach's screens seem to have great problems with default Linuxcnc screens. It really seems to come down to what you are used to. Starting out with Linuxcnc – I like the default screens and don't like the mach look. It is what it is.

But I digress.. As I stated above – why waste time with partial solutions that sort of work most of the time when there is a robust free solution out there. Scalable and configurable.

sam

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

@sam

I don't think anyone is looking for a silver bullet, however, these units being discussed cut out a whole heap of steps that many simply don't want to be involved with.

The idea with one of these units is that you DON'T need to:

• obtain a PC (free or otherwise)
• install an OS (free or otherwise)
• install any applications (free or otherwise).
• buy any third party boards (Break out, Smooth Stepper, Mesa, etc)

You simply hook up your stepper drivers, PSU, etc, adjust some settings for your mill/lathe, upload some Gcode on a USB stick and off you go.

The front end takes up no more space than a DRO and looks professional – easy sell to the CNC newbie.

Don't get me wrong – I personally am doing my best to make LinuxCNC work for me, however I have the time and inclination to make it work, 20+ years in Unix based IT, plus I am a cheapskate at heart, but it is a far cry from plain sailing and I am still struggling with hardware issues – second motherboard, still doesn't like my add-on parallel card, etc.

If I was charging for my time, I would have given up on LinuxCNC months ago and bought one of the £500.00 units and have my machine up and running in no time.

I have big plans for my mini mill:

• power drawbar
• flood coolant
• mist coolant
• air blast
• ATC with carousel
• 4th Axis
• Lathe spindle option

All of this is possible with LinuxCNC, but it will be a slow and complicated path to make it all work – pretty much all of my requirements are covered out of the box by one of these units, plus much more besides.

What will I make on it – I have no idea, probably parts for other projects. For me it is all about the journey, the satisfaction of having built it and the learning experiences gained along the way, many others simply want to get on and make stuff, and for those people these units are a no-brainer.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Zebethyal on 28/09/2016 11:56:41:

@sam

I don't think anyone is looking for a silver bullet, however, these units being discussed cut out a whole heap of steps that many simply don't want to be involved with.

The idea with one of these units is that you DON'T need to:

• obtain a PC (free or otherwise)
• install an OS (free or otherwise)
• install any applications (free or otherwise).
• buy any third party boards (Break out, Smooth Stepper, Mesa, etc)

You simply hook up your stepper drivers, PSU, etc, adjust some settings for your mill/lathe, upload some Gcode on a USB stick and off you go.

The front end takes up no more space than a DRO and looks professional – easy sell to the CNC newbie.

What will I make on it – I have no idea, probably parts for other projects. For me it is all about the journey, the satisfaction of having built it and the learning experiences gained along the way, many others simply want to get on and make stuff, and for those people these units are a no-brainer.

That list is exactly why I'm interested in one. I'm more interested in productivity improvements than some of the fancier CNC capabilities; automating the numerous small cuts necessary with my mini-mill would mean I could do more important stuff than just cranking handles. A conversion based around one of these units is going to cost a similar amount to a decent DRO, something else I've considered. I would get bigger improvements from a Bridgeport sized mill, but I don't have room for my current tools.

Spending months buggering about getting computers, operating systems, software, impenetrable electronic gizmos and mechanical bits working together would require time and patience I have better uses for.

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

I am with Zebethyal on this – I moved house some 10 months ago and I am just in the process of making my CNC converted BF20 operational again – which went down the classic not-so-old PC, MACH3 route. However the 2nd parallel port board I use for extra inputs and outputs lasts for about 6 months before something stops working, MACH3 refuses to output whit it should when running some special code, the driver boards date back some 7 years and only run at 30V so all in all its a bit outdated.

On the strength of this thread, I have bought the DDCSV1.1 along with a driver board running at 48V and a spare new PSU to completely update the system. It sounds like it will be a step backwards in some ways (missing the conversational aspect) but that will just mean an alternative way of working. What it does mean is that I won't have to maintain yet another XP machine, buy printer boards on a regular basis and have to find space for a PC and a largely unnecessary mouse and keyboard – which are not really workshop compatible any (not in mine anyhow!).

I have a background in electronics, am well versed in the deeper aspects of PCs/Windows from DOS 2 through Win7, have built 2 CNC systems and the mill has been through a constant upgrade since v1.0 in 2007 – but I use it to make things, not as an amusement in itself. And like many others I am tired of having to fault-find obscure bugs – e.g. the bug in the MACH3 threading canned cycle where I discovered duplicate instructions – not the cause of my problem at the time but a pain nonetheless…

Don't get me wrong, MACH3 and the whole PC based solution has been brilliant – but like many things, it IMO has had its day, time to move onto the next generation which is absolutely not MACH4 (IMO again).

Maybe the DDSCV1 is not the right solution – but either it gets a firmware upgrade or I buy the next box as the 500£ plus functionality permeates down to the cheaper boxes – maybe DDCSV2 or even 3…

So waiting for the cheapest supplier of the box to get it to me from somewhere in China – did it through the usual auction site but realised too late that alibaba had even better deals to the tune of some 20€.

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

This looks kinda cool?? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hindtechnology/masso-the-all-in-one-cnc-controller

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Stevenson on 22/09/2016 23:01:10:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/09/2016 22:00:55:

"Now Mr Bond, as soon as we have installed the Linux drivers, wired up the interface, adjusted the steppers, debugged the G-code, re-installed the Linux drivers, calibrated each axis and found the correct control screen, you are doomed!"

.

So he's safe for a few years ?

Not at all. The correct caption for this photo is "Don't worry Mr Bond. Apparently there's a fix for this in Service Pack 3."

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Problem I can see with the Masso unit is they make a big fuss in one of the videos about needing PC, monitor drives all all the other gear, then draw loads of lines to link it up.
They then go on to show the Masso unit connected to a rat’s nest when all its done is replaced the PC.

Still needs monitor, keyboard etc.

Also looks the have drivers fitter so what happens when one blows ? Whole unit toast and what if you want to run servo’s or closed loop steppers ?

Edited By John Stevenson on 28/09/2016 17:07:25

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

This is a question aimed at JS, but if others know the answer or have recommendations I would appreciate there input, I have managed to get the manual for the NEW990TDb I requested the Mill manual, however the one I got via email is for a lathe not mill, also its not clear if I can use it to drive my Gecko drive servo controllers, which use Step Dir in the same way Gecko stepper motor drivers do, if not do you know what model is suitable for my needs which is 4 axis mill, I might be able to get away with one of the DDSCV1 units but if I'm going to the trouble of upgrading my mill Id prefer one of the higher spec units.

If anyone want the manual in PDF please pm me.

Shaun

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Shawn, away from home at moment but I do have a mill manual. As regards connections the M model ( mill ) and L model ( lathe ) are virtually identical. They both do step and direction.

Steve Blackmore has got his Orac lathe threading today, straight out the box, perfect thread. He’s put a video up on you tube called, for some reason Produce. Sorry can’t copy paste the link on this phone.
https ://youtube/dTacj_DCH6w

Edited By John Stevenson on 28/09/2016 21:46:25

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

John,

Is this the video? **LINK**

Somewhat unsure, because this is a Fanuc lathe, not Orac.

MichaelG.

 

Edited By JasonB on 29/09/2016 07:43:35

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

Looks like an ORAC to me.

The tin cover on the crossslide and the Z Axis microswitch actuator look very familiar

Cheers Michael.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Perhaps I misinterpreted the text then

MichaelG.

.

[quote] Published on 28 Sep 2016First auto cut 1mm pitch thread on a Chinese Fanuc lathe type stand alone controller. Cost approx £400 UKP including delivery.
Contact me if you require further details.

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[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

I would interpret it as Fanuc is the controller and ORAC is the lathe. Looks pretty good if you are into that sort of thing.

Cheers Michael.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I'm sure you're right, Michael

… As you might guess I'm not 'into that sort of thing' [yet]

MichaelG.

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