Alternative to PC based Cnc controllers

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Yes, that failure rate is daft, although if you buy VWs or Dysons you might think otherwise. There's not a lot in those controllers and they are mostly mature technology if you look inside the box.

The last product I launched (this one) was achieving 99.5% FPY (end of line failures) within 6 months of launch and field failure rates in the 100s of PPM over the first few years, despite being made in China. It had to be reliable and well manufactured, as it isn't possible to repair it and it has an 8 year warranty life, so any failure makes it scrap. It had a pleasingly adverse impact on the "made in USA" competition…

True, you can buy utter crap anywhere in the world but 7% failures would put you out of business before you even got into it.

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

I'm having one of these on my to me! Xmas pressy list, it looks a no brainer, I need 4 axis mill to start with, this will replace Mach on the Hurco, but I might go for the lathe one as well, then look around for a lathe to convert.

Has a group buy ever been done on this forum?!

Shaun

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Dysons

The customer service is excellent, when we had a Dyson they were always happily sending us replacement parts!

That said the SO has a small portable Dyson Vac and that does seem to be a bit more robust, unlike the earlier models.

Neil

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

Posted by John Stevenson on 13/09/2016 09:47:16:

Linux is possibly a better system but run by a team of developers not users who frankly don't listen to anyone and this has been well documented over the years. With Linux everyone is free to do what they want and return any modified code to the developers but then it falls thru the cracks.

All these systems require hardware like breakout boards, external controllers computers etc.

Everyone tells you Linux is free, technically yes but the time taken to set it up isn't. No two computers whether free, bought or whatever are the same. The result is when a system is shipped out to a customer you can get all sort of problems that have to be supported

this is a bit unfair. I know of a hand full of situations that you are describing. The developers of linuxcnc do it as a hobby. They work on bits that they are interested in. Simple as that. To come in and demand something be done isn't going to get you very far. One of the developers gave this link as an example of understanding open source development.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/09/msg00453.html

in another post you said Mach/linuxcnc needs expensive hardware to work like the dedicated control. (Rigid tapping, threading…).

linuxcnc will do these things with only the printer port. If you need something faster than the printer port then a whopping 89us will get you a pci or ethernet external hardware. (2 printer ports worth and expendable). For about 200us you get a 5 axis stepper Bob with spindle encoder interface + analog out, 48 i/O and also expandable. The control interface options are almost limitless (and very inexpensive).

Linuxcnc is a mature cnc control software that is actively developed. Stable and flexible. If you apply a bit of elbow grease and invest a bit of time – linuxcnc won't let you down.

Sam

Edited By sam sokolik on 20/09/2016 04:25:24

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The reliability figure was based on an MTBF of 125k hours which is pretty good these days for the equivalent of a TV so maybe a little controller will do better. The PSU can be a let down and is often a saving with that toy widget or usb hub but may have only 50k hours while a decent one with 250k MTBF will cost 3x more. MTBF is based on the MIL spec so assumes you repair it, disposables work out worse. Even at 7% you still have some of your units that have never failed after 10 years. I still have a lot of stuff hanging on with customers after 16 years – bit of a nuisance as we want them to upgrade.

Dysons with one moving part don't compare. How is your Sky box and VCR shaping up?

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Sam,

I'll have to reply in full to this tonight as going out at the moment but let me say I'm not trying to knock LinuxCNC. It does work and works very well but only for 1% of the uses who understand it to set it up.

Reply in full later.

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

@Sam,

I agree with what you are saying, however, you are kind of missing John's point.

Yes, you can pick up a 'scrap' PC, monitor and keyboard, install LinuxCNC or Mach3, but that all requires come computer 'savvy' that not everyone has, and even many that do, can't be bothered to spend the time and effort.

Not every PC works well with LinuxCNC, and it is a bit of a 'suck it and see' aproach to find one that gives low latency figures, older machines often being better than newer ones.

I can easily see why many people opt for Mach3 over LinuxCNC, due to more familiarity with Windows, but it still involves installing an OS, an application and configuring that application, which is not always the simplest thing in the world.

I have currently decided to go with LinuxCNC, since I have 20+ years of Unix experience, however, I would say that my journey has been far from plain sailing and many would have thrown the towel in ages ago.

The appeal of the units John is talking about is that for around £150.00, you coud have a ready made solution, hook up your steppers, drivers and PSU and off you go, for many, the time saving and simplicity alone is worth the cost.

For £400.00 you can have a commercial unit that can do pretty much anything you could ever want, tool changer, coolant, threading, etc, etc, that could take you months to configure in Mach3 or LinuxCNC, all in a unit about the size of a DRO! – I am still struggling to persuade LinuxCNC to recognise my second parallel card! The OS sees it, stepconf sees it, but you start the main app and it refuses to play – oh the joys of cobbling together a system with parts that may or may not be completely supported.

If you want more than a basic setup with Mach3, you are probably looking at a smooth stepper unit, and with LinuxCNC, Mesa boards, both of which start significantly adding to the cost and complexity of your setup, at which point an all in one box starts to look very attractive.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by sam sokolik on 20/09/2016 04:22:14:

Posted by John Stevenson on 13/09/2016 09:47:16:

Linux is possibly a better system but run by a team of developers not users who frankly don't listen to anyone and this has been well documented over the years. With Linux everyone is free to do what they want and return any modified code to the developers but then it falls thru the cracks.

All these systems require hardware like breakout boards, external controllers computers etc.

Everyone tells you Linux is free, technically yes but the time taken to set it up isn't. No two computers whether free, bought or whatever are the same. The result is when a system is shipped out to a customer you can get all sort of problems that have to be supported

this is a bit unfair…

Sam

Edited By sam sokolik on 20/09/2016 04:25:24

I don't think you need worry too much Sam, John's critique of Linux is directed at the voluntary developer end of the spectrum.

Actually, because linux is open source it has very considerable appeal to the scientific and embedded software communities. In the case of these CNC controllers, the innards are almost certainly based on linux as the operating system, and it's not unlikely that the application is a commercial adaptation of an open source CNC development. It's common for improvements made by commercial developers to eventually find their way back into the open source base. It's also possible that the software was developed from scratch – we don't know.

At the moment:

• super-computers are far more likely to be running a Linux OS than anything else.
• Difficult to know exactly but perhaps 60% of all Servers are running some sort of UNIX (Commercial or Linux).
• The majority of Desktops are Microsoft with Apple in the rear. (I say this with regret as I write this with Firefox and Ubuntu, but most people don't like learning new tricks.)
• The majority of embedded computing is Linux based. Things like routers, NAS, smart TV, mobile phones, entertainment centres, SatNavs, games, toys, avionics, SDR, and controllers of all sorts. The flexibility of open source software is highly advantageous in the world of embedded computing, which is where the money is these days.

John is a professional engineer. As such I would expect him to focus on the usability of any product that's intended for sale. In an ideal world, the customer shouldn't have to worry about what's inside the box. It should just work, be supported, and above all be affordable. Linux and open source software is well placed to enable all that, but most people wouldn't want to have to do the enabling themselves.

Cheers,

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Involute Curve on 17/09/2016 03:34:47:

I'm having one of these on my to me! Xmas pressy list, it looks a no brainer, I need 4 axis mill to start with, this will replace Mach on the Hurco, but I might go for the lathe one as well, then look around for a lathe to convert.

Has a group buy ever been done on this forum?!

Shaun

Might be worth starting a discussion with JS.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bazyle on 20/09/2016 08:03:26:

Dysons with one moving part don't compare.

True, they last for weeks!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The problem with all opensource is that it is led by the developers, not the users because there are no 'customers'.

It's just like this forum – if people had to pay to use it we would have had to upgrade the software years ago.

I had a recent problem with Firefox – it decided it had a slow start and told me I should 'refresh it'. An ambiguously worded page didn't explain I would lose all my settings as 'refresh' is essentially a shortcut to a vanilla install. It took me a good while and some fiddling to get my settings back and many ordinary folk would have had no luck at all.

Reporting this, most people want to help by offering me links to things that would help me restore my settings. Not one person has responded to my repeated request that they preface the refresh suggestion with a clearer explanation of what will happen and less drastic ways of speeding up firefox and add a simple 'restore old profile' button somewhere. This is despite several of the acknowledging that refresh causes a lot of people problems, although it is useful when firefox gets completely stuffed and someone inexperienced needs an easy way out.

Neil

[Cyril BonnettParticipant @cyrilbonnett24790]

This 'thread' shows one of the problems that we all have today, ask a question and the answers and others problems, ideas and experiences go on for days, nearly 9 in this case, JS's images of his shelves loaded with defunct or not used equipment looks much like a case of 'throwing' money at a problem which I seems is typically of today's society from government down to the garden shed.

A big problem today when it comes to using computers is the amount of commercialisation that has crept into everything that involves them, even a simple search for information ends up with reams of useless advertising, advertising that is making someone somewhere money.

Linux may be 'free' but the android operating system is based on it, so there is now big 'money' to be made from it.

While forums do supply good advise, do help in many ways, sitting reading through them takes time and energy, time and energy that is better spent doing something more constructive!

Modern day developers rely on modern day users, if their idea works they are quid's in, if it doesn't then like John and others you are out of pocket with shelves stacked high and the developer moves on to another 'idea'. Crowd funding is the ultimate 'makers' world, letting some else take the risk.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Cyril,

It sounds like quite a morbid diagnosis of society. In some ways you are showing your own modernity by highlighting how JS threw his money at the problem, years ago, people wouldn't have been so hung up on cost effectiveness, we have all followed the U.S down that garden path of "time is money".

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 20/09/2016 12:12:01

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

It’s not so much that time is money in my case although I have to agree, it’s broken promises where a developer says buy this it will do all you want but then it doesn’t and you are left without any support.

When the Smooth Stepper came out threading was promised within a month, then Greg the developer went ‘missing’ for a whole year and the SS had an earth loop problem which he denied at first. Later the MKll can on the scene to cure this.

But guess what, 4 years on and threading is a month away.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

It seems that PlanetCNC and UCCNC now support fully synchronised threading as well as rigid tapping.

Martin.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Cyril Bonnett on 20/09/2016 11:59:33:

A big problem today when it comes to using computers is the amount of commercialisation that has crept into everything that involves them, even a simple search for information ends up with reams of useless advertising, advertising that is making someone somewhere money.

Linux may be 'free' but the android operating system is based on it, so there is now big 'money' to be made from it.

 

We shouldn't be so concerned that companies are making money using computers, that's their freedom to do so, theres plenty of "ordinary" people who use the internet without that purpose.

I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that the internet has become the biggest transformation of information availability since the radio or the printing press, and that can only be good for us, if nothing else.

For much earlier civilization in Britain, the only places you could find out about anything were the pub or the church. 

I often find it quite ironic, that the elderly have the stereotype of being the most adverse to the internet/computers when, with their lack of mobility and all they are probably the biggest beneficeries of the technology.  

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 20/09/2016 13:35:01

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Cyril Bonnett on 20/09/2016 11:59:33:

This 'thread' shows one of the problems that we all have today, ask a question and the answers and others problems, ideas and experiences go on for days, nearly 9 in this case,

…

The forum is all about creativity and I suppose that leads inevitably into discussion about what motivates us to do stuff.

I do model engineering for fun and interest. Others are competitive, or practical, or collectors, and some are in it for the money. I suppose it's inevitable that creative people will want to fully explore a topic, that they won't always agree and that they will want to explore rabbit holes.

On the whole I like to see a range of opinion even though it can be irritating to have to wade through guff to find an answer. I can quite see the rambling might spoil the forum for others. I'm doing it now…

Sorry,

Dave

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/09/2016 10:36:58:

Posted by Involute Curve on 17/09/2016 03:34:47:

I'm having one of these on my to me! Xmas pressy list, it looks a no brainer, I need 4 axis mill to start with, this will replace Mach on the Hurco, but I might go for the lathe one as well, then look around for a lathe to convert.

Has a group buy ever been done on this forum?!

Shaun

Might be worth starting a discussion with JS.

Neil

I'm well up for this I have the cash sat here waiting for one of the more upmarket ones ie 990MDb or similar, when do you want the cash John

I have a smooth stepper here in its original packaging, after all the hooha on the Mach forum I just gave up on the idea, I also have a PayPal receipt for a Mach 4 license that's never been activated for the same reason, I don't even bother with the Mach forums anymore its the same stuff over and over again.
I've been using my mill more or less as I converted it over 12 years ago running from the printer port, on a home made breakout and relay board it works OK for most stuff, however I want to move on and upgrade if you like, I've replaced the PC that drive the mill twice over the past decade its a pain.

Now then after seeing the above systems its a no brainer for me, I went through the watching it do stuff ages ago, now I'm more interested in the quality of the parts and the speed I can get em made, I want to build and ride me bikes more that watch the miller do stuff.

I will be looking for 4 axis mill, with MPG, VFD control, step dir for my Geko servo drivers, X,Y,Z, A axis has a Geko stepper driver and not used often, not too bothered about rigid tapping.

Shaun

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by blowlamp on 20/09/2016 13:01:25:

It seems that PlanetCNC and UCCNC now support fully synchronised threading as well as rigid tapping.

Martin.

.

Thank you for those links Martin, I wasn't aware that either could do threading on lathe.

However having spent nearly an hour perusing both websites and down loading both hardware and software manuals for both I'm non plussed at what they can do. This is starting to get familiar ??

Planet CNC first.

The board says it can take spindle encoder in but in the 35 page manual of which 7 pages are spent telling you how to wire all the different types of limits switch [ which aren't actually needed for the machine to run] but no explanation of how to wire the encoder in and not even is it just index pulse or multi line. I suspect it's index pulse only which is not a lot of good for accurate work

UCCNC next

Again hardly any information other than a video of threading with a felt tipped pan. The hardware manual is 21 pages long 19 of which tell you how to connect it up to the ethernet port, [ is it THAT hard ? and if it is WHY ? ]

Then the last two pages tell you what the terminals are in flowing terms like output 1, 2,3 etc for Port 1, poert 2 is identical but no a clue where to connect to ?

So please excuse me if I don't throw 215 Euros for the UCCNC board and software plus breakout board and another 263 Euro for the Planet offering.

I don't think the shelf can stand any more white elephants.

Seriously lads it's this total lack of support that is killing this. They know if or how good it works but it's a closely guarded secret.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Reply to Sam and general to highlight what I mean but this is no detraction of the fact that LinuxCNC works, and works well, just the hoops you have to jump thru which mere mortals cannot achieve.

First of all because many haven't seen Linux out of the box this is it.

There are other screens but this screen called axis is the default. Any other screens are not just click and select you need to do work inside the program.

Now imagine you are a punter spending serious coin on a CNC conversion or machine and you are hesitant whether you can even use it and someone shows you this above.

Not one person I have shown it to has said "Yes I like that we'll go for it " I get remarks like where is the start and stop buttons. Even had a guy ask me where the readout is, I think he was expecting DRO type boxes. One guy was that amazed he said it looked like Etch-a-sketch on acid.

Now this is also a Linux screen.

I think it has been written to look a lot like Mach3 and as such it would have a good following for anyone making the change.

However if you go on the Linux forum it's now into 5 pages and so far I don't think anyone has got it working which is a shame and remember the guys on there are dedicated and very clued up so doesn't give people like me much chance and more importantly how could I support this to a user who knew even less than me, if that's possible.

Now Tormach realising that they needed a lathe controller took Linux CNC, re- wrote the trajectory planner which had been broken for about 3 years and gave it back to the community, then wrote their own screens.

This is the front screen.

Nicely laid out, menu bar across the middle for files, settings, tools and conversational for everyday jobs where you don't need to draw the part, things like pockets and profiles.

Which setup would you choose ?

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by John Stevenson on 20/09/2016 21:27:47:

First of all because many haven't seen Linux out of the box this is it.

…. Even had a guy ask me where the readout is, I think he was expecting DRO type boxes.

Hint: Click on the tab that says "DRO".

You'll get a huge DRO replacing that backplot screen. Simple.

BTW – I really like the Tormach screen, mainly for their take on conversational programming.

(I'll not argue that the Axis screen is pretty, but really, who cares? It has everything there, and you can actually do a few neat things with it.

It's like having an old lathe. Do you care if it is pristine, or do you care that it works reliably and accurately? Give me a solid machine over a shiny new one ANY DAY, but then, I use mine, I don't spend hours shining them)

See you!

The Colonial JohnS.

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

I am the wrong person to comment on axis. It is the first gui I used when I started linuxcnc – and I still use it. I love it. I can add tabs and panels to customize it to my needs.

there are a ton of example configs in linuxcnc. Here is a sample.

Here is axis with the DRO tap active

Here are some of the other gui – Gmoccopy (a bunch of views)

Gscreen is one of the build your own frameworks

You can easily add your own panels to existing gui

Touchy

Some older ones

sam

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by sam sokolik on 21/09/2016 01:56:34:

I am the wrong person to comment on axis. It is the first gui I used when I started linuxcnc – and I still use it. I love it. I can add tabs and panels to customize it to my needs.

there are a ton of example configs in linuxcnc. Here is a sample.

sam

And this folks is the problem.

Whilst the developers are over the moon with the basic default screen NOTHING will move forward.

Now why if it's that good didn't Tormach use it ?

Because they knew their customer base wouldn't buy or use it – end of story.

Yes other screens are available but they don't come setup like that out of the box and there are more people that want to use machines than play with computers..

The list is impressive Sam but I'll bet it's gone over most peoples heads on this forum

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by sam sokolik on 21/09/2016 01:56:34:

I just love those meaningful names that make it so easy to select what you want/need

Neil

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/09/2016 17:46:03:

I just love those meaningful names that make it so easy to select what you want/need

Neil, as editor of MEW, I know that you keep in mind that beginners to our hobby have difficulty with what to us old hats seems simple.

I can remember getting tripped up over the "AF" symbol on drawings. Amongst other things.

If *any* of this was really dead easy, there'd be no sense of accomplishment of learning and mastering a new skill so we'd probably not do it.

(and, yes, what Sam posted and you replied to is simple, once you understand what's going on)

John.

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