Alternative to PC based Cnc controllers

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by John Stevenson on 13/09/2016 11:40:21:
Cheapest one is around ?115, next one a bit more market is ?150. These will run 3 or 4 axis milling machines and routers but not lathe if you wish to thread.

So basically you get a controller for the price of a new PC.

Setting up is very easy on these cheaper ones and as they become more popular people will share their setup files as is the way of the internet.

And yes I have brought 4 controllers into the country and of the 3 I have looked at I am very pleased with the simplicity

Very interesting. Any chance of some pointers to those which you think are worthy candidates, of the ones you've seen?

Martin

[Alan JacksonParticipant @alanjackson47790]

What is so wrong with using TurboCNC in a DOS computer even an old laptop with a printer port. It works good enough for me in my Stepperhead lathe? Is it too retro?

Alan

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

John's just popped round to show me the magic box, just PSU, box, stepper driver and a stepper on X happily whirring through a program that's been uploaded to it.

I've asked him to pull together an article on these boxes to answer the questions and provide an introduction for those not familiar with CNC.

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Alan, My problem is I have to 'sell' the idea to a punter.

Fine showing someone Mach 3, they are familiar with Windows programs but Linux and Turbo CNc is a non started on the grounds of the screen display.

The y expect more for their money.

Just saying and reporting back from nearly 8 years of doing this on a hobby level.

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

Very interested in these stand alone controllers too (for a mill). Just had a look around for user reviews and found a useful thread on MadModder about the "DDCSV1.1" model which seems to be £146 shipped from China (on Ebay) or £178 shipped from Germany. Madmodder thread at:

**LINK**

which includes a link to the full 91 page user manual

**LINK**

John S, assume that's one of the ones you're talking about? (EDIT – presumably it is as you've posted on that MadModder thread too!)

Edited By Bikepete on 13/09/2016 14:51:25

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/09/2016 14:13:25:

John's just popped round to show me the magic box, just PSU, box, stepper driver and a stepper on X happily whirring through a program that's been uploaded to it.

It's that just that defines the appeal of this magic box. I've considered converting my mini-mill to CNC on a number of occasions, and while fitting ballscrews with a motor attached doesn't worry me, the whole knee bone is attached to the shoulder blade with a gronkelwanger that simply(?) converts a thingy into a whatsit via PFM amplified by a side fumbling throbnozzle has always put me off. Add in the need to acquire, and find space for, a computer to work it all, plus the usual hideously unfriendly(and they're the ones you have to pay for!) software and the whole plan goes out the window. This way, the conversion should cost less than a decent DRO, and actually make stuff while I do something else – the real appeal of CNC for me as cranking handles to make simple parts is just boring work.

Top of the list of stuff to do when I can afford the controller.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Bikepete.

 

That's one of the ones I have but I haven't played with mine as yet, only the cheaper one but I did pop up to Joules place to have a look and try his controller out.

 

In the meanwhile I'm starting work on the first article for Neil so I'm afraid you will have to wait but I'm sure for many, like Nicholas above, the wait will be worth it for the simplicity.

Edited By John Stevenson on 13/09/2016 15:15:33

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by John Stevenson on 13/09/2016 14:15:46:

Alan, My problem is I have to 'sell' the idea to a punter.

Fine showing someone Mach 3, they are familiar with Windows programs but Linux and Turbo CNc is a non started on the grounds of the screen display.

John

I'm 'sold' on the idea so where next?

I've more than one spare PC, several steppers, motor drivers, PSUs etc and considered CNC'ing my mill many times over the last few years but the various software options have discouraged me. I think these dedicated controllers will be game changers and I want to go that route.

Do you have any controller recommendations?

My only concern is how good the documentation is, I have a Sino DRO and still cannot understand the manual!

Ian P

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Ian,

You don’t need a PC, monitor, keyboard or mouse.

All you need for a simple 3 axis machine where you start and stop the spindle from the panel, is a power supply, one of these boxes, three stepper drives and three motors. That’s it.

But sorry you will have to wait for the article unless you want to roll your own.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by John Stevenson on 13/09/2016 15:33:58:
Ian,

You don't need a PC, monitor, keyboard or mouse.

All you need for a simple 3 axis machine where you start and stop the spindle from the panel, is a power supply, one of these boxes, three stepper drives and three motors. That's it.

But sorry you will have to wait for the article unless you want to roll your own.

Sorry but I was trying to say I wanted to go down this new (ish) road. My posting crossed with your reply to Bikepete so I understand the embargo until Neil publishes.

Now, roll my own is tempting… I've not researched what controllers are available but I should be sensible and wait for your writings as the extra knowledge you will impart will be invaluable, it will probably save me wasting a lot of time on my own learning curve. Whether I will be patient is another matter!

Ian P

PS, one quick question as I've not read any manuals. The controllers have PC/network interfaces, does that meant that programming can be done/edited offline?

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

I've had TurboCNC and all the versions of Mach, and some of the the Linux versions used in CNC control, over the years, all can be made to work well, My old man would love a CNC machine just to play, with but he hates computers, he likes playing about with one of the lathes at work, this uses a Syntec controller, he finds this much easier to use than a PC based system, I will be looking at building him a small miller using the above mentioned gear asap, but with a view to converting my other home stuff over also.

So will you all stop asking John questions so he can get on with said article….. taps fingers………

 

Shaun

I'm off out on the bike for an hour Ill call in and tell the old man it wont be long…….

Edited By Involute Curve on 13/09/2016 16:33:01

[Bob n AboutParticipant @bobnabout]

Hi guys, some astute comments. I am one of those under 55 (just) tech types. My background does involve computers, but these days they are just a tool to get a job done, I have no desire to geek out on them anymore. I am at a point where I just want to use a CNC machine, just like a company would, but I don't have a company budget. I have used LinuxCNC and EMC2 in the past, frankly they are hard work when things go wrong. I bought the DDCSV1.1 controller after doing a little research on them. One of my requirements was for a graphical representation of the work in progress. I haven't been disappointed in the controller and have a second to do a mill conversion. In fact it's my machining that isn't upto the job, the controller was easy to setup. Any unknown commands can quickly be searched for on the net. As was said, a body of knowledge is already being built and quickly people will be able to offer support for these boxes. I have both Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone boards here that I have tried to get running LinuxCNC on for the past year ? with no real luck. The DDCSV uses an ARM processor and pretty much does what it should with minimum bells and whistles. My current G Code knowledge has come from 3D printing and again I buy printers to use, not as a hobby in their own right. These controllers really are game changes and with demand for them they will only get better.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

What is their OS? tend to assume Linux of some variety so can they be loaded with other s/w? One would hope they have a net connection capability to get their own updates. Obvious alternative uses being electronic leadscrew and dividing engine.

What happens when they die? bear in mind this level of small complex electronics has a 0.5% failure rate out of the box and maybe 7% per year afterwards on a good day with a following wind so a local reputable source may be worth the extra cost.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Probably as they have ARM processors.

What happens when they die ?

I suppose you just buy a new updated one but having said that it's more like a DRO readout and how often do those fail ?

No idea about updates but if you bought a new Fanuc OT back in 2005 that would have cost you about 7K and if it was still running today, as most are then it would still be the original program.

I'm still running a copy of AHHA on a DOS box and the program is dated 1998 and still runs fine.

The cheap one is less cost than a USB breakout board so it could be counted as a consumable, even less if you take the fact that you spend virtually no time in setting up and baby sitting.

 

This from a guy who's just walked in from setting a small CNC router up because the computer had a brain fart and the guy hadn't made an XML backup of Mach 3.

 

Not sure with these cheaper ones but the 400 pound commercial ones you can backup to a stick so if it did go pear shaped you could try a backup but if you had to buy a new unit then you have all your parameters saved.

Edited By John Stevenson on 13/09/2016 22:48:44

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Further to the Mach3 threading bug. I think the problem is that the threading macro tries to go to the tool changer and so switches to machine coordinates for the move. If you have not got the machine coordinates set they may be very different to the user coordinates. The easy way to set the machine coordinates is to home the X and Z axes. This does require home switches on the lathe but a lot of people probably never fit them as they can seem unnecessary. I experienced this bug when I first tried using the threading wizard but as I have fitted home switches and now have the machine coordinates set as something sensible I do not have alarming and seemingly random moves to a tool changer taking place.

Martin

PS I also think you can switch off the tool changer option somewhere but I may be mixing this up with Mach3 on the mill.

Edited By Martin Connelly on 14/09/2016 10:41:25

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Having looked at the manual for the DDCSV1.1 controller, I didn't see any implementation of G Codes G61 & G64 for exact path and path blending modes, which might well mean the default is one or the other, but not necessarily what you need.

Can someone confirm or deny the above and perhaps let us know if any common G Codes aren't implemented in these units, which are in Mach3 or LinuxCNC etc, please?

Martin.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Martin if you have read the book then you know what codes are implemented.

These are a cheap controller aimed at the beginner with a mill or router. They have no G76 threading codes either as they are not for lathe, or ridgid tapping for mill.

If you want all these codes then you Ned to look at the four hundred pound unit which has all these and more. Far more than standard Mach or Linux unless you throw a lot of expensive hardware at it.

They are cheap, simple entry level units. End of story.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by John Stevenson on 15/09/2016 12:15:19:

Martin if you have read the book then you know what codes are implemented.

These are a cheap controller aimed at the beginner with a mill or router. They have no G76 threading codes either as they are not for lathe, or ridgid tapping for mill.

If you want all these codes then you Ned to look at the four hundred pound unit which has all these and more. Far more than standard Mach or Linux unless you throw a lot of expensive hardware at it.

They are cheap, simple entry level units. End of story.

John. The manual I saw may not be up to date with the functions available in the current software version out in the wild.

The point I'm making is for anyone thinking of moving from Mach3 or LinuxCNC to be aware of missing functions they may be accustomed to having.

The point you make of needing to buy the £400 unit to get features in Mach3 & LinuxCNC puts things more in perspective.

Martin.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

The four hundred pound unit is a full commercial unit and I didn’t really want to cover it here but in terms of what it can do from what is contained in the box it’s far, far superior.

Mach and Linux can only achieve these features with expensive hardware and the associated problems of setting up,

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I have not seen a price for the NEW990TDb linked to in the post by John S on 11 Sep but the manual is available in PDF format here. **LINK**

This lists the codes it accepts which include G76 threading.

Martin

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Martin Connelly on 16/09/2016 13:58:57:

I have not seen a price for the NEW990TDb linked to in the post by John S on 11 Sep

312 quid + 91 quid fedex plus vat and handling charges in the UK

500 quid should just about cover it

990TDB at aliexpress

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

That Aliexpress link not working for me – let's see if this works: here for lathe version and here for a mill.

EDIT – they're a bit more pricey than the one Martin found… but they have English on the buttons…

Edited By Bikepete on 16/09/2016 18:09:01

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Deal direct with Newkye.

 

**************************************************************

 

Dear Mr.John Stevenson,

Have a nice day, I will give you the best price for your order , NEW990TDb-2 is $370,so 2 pcs with freight is $930, do you need servo motor and driver?

With kind regards,

————————————————————
Alisa Zhang

Foreign trade manager
Taizhou Newkye Electronics CO.,LTD
http://www.newkye.com

 

*****************************************

So at the time this worked out to £720 UKP then £15 handling and £88 duty to be paid on two units.

As I was able claim the £88 back, this worked out to £367.50

 

Today's prices may be different because of the exchange rate.

 

This is for a commercial unit that handles all common G Code that Mach and Linux can handle plus many more specialised ones. Can handle steppers and servo's, spindle off / on and speed. Screw cutting and tool changer without needing any external control cards or third party support, or from past experience third world support.

 

The first of these units has been fitted to a Denford Orac and is running test code at the moment.

This is it's first thread straight out of the box.

 

Something we have waited years for a thread that works and a decent GUI.

Edited By John Stevenson on 16/09/2016 20:03:03

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bazyle on 13/09/2016 22:27:52:

…

bear in mind this level of small complex electronics has a 0.5% failure rate out of the box and maybe 7% per year afterwards on a good day with a following wind

…

Is that right for modern electronics Bazyle? Thirty years ago I would have agreed wholeheartedly but failure rates have been falling for decades. (Total rubbish, bleeding edge and exploding batteries apart!)

0.5% sounds a reasonable rate for first time failures, but thereafter I think the average failure rate for electronics drops for a few years before rising again as the components age. Mechanical things like switches tend to fail first. The electronics I own has all been very reliable, certainly not failing at 7% per year, thank goodness.

The prices John is quoting are close to the point where I start to see these magic boxes as disposable, not unlike the cheap digital radio I have in my workshop.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/09/2016 21:06:33

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I also question the 7% failure rate.

Closest thing I can envision in a workshop is a DRO, proper commercial one and not the simple remote scale type.

I have had DRO's now since 1980, so 36 years. The early Heidenhain type have long gone together with the machines they were fitted to but you still see them today. I never personally had a display fault on any of these. Two faulty scales cause by age, crap and corruption. The current set of DRO's which are still not that dated, date back from about 2000.

Sino's, Onxy and Eassons, no problems with displays but have had a lathe cross slide scale go down after about 8 years and incidentally these are every day commercial machines, not hobby.

£400 for a commercial controller is peanuts. You couldn't get a Fanuc engineer on site for that money.

But the cheaper units which are more hobby mill and router style are around the £140 to £170 depending on where you buy from.

Price of a cheap PC ?

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