Aircraft General Discussion

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Life is full of these things

I was on a sister ship of the Derbyshire shortly after she disappeared and there was all sorts of stuff going on

The bottom line is if you are at the forefront of any technology then there will be casualties

Like with the Comet in the early days

There are none nowadays because we are at the back of the queue,

Edited By Ady1 on 05/04/2018 01:33:09

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

–but it was compounded by the cockpit hierarchy which gave the captain rigid control with the first officer and other crew discouraged from attempting to challenge him.

Had there been freer atmosphere in the cockpit, the accident may well not have happened–

That's rubbish, nothing ever stops a decent junior officer from ever challenging a superior officer

I over ruled a captain on at least one occasion, the poor guy just couldn't handle it but most of the time he was more than capable and more capable than me

It all boils down to the individual and the situation

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The Titanic was a classic seagoing one

Don't dodge the iceberg

Ram it head on

Lose your job, everyone lives, go home

 

Edit: All you really need is huge cahoonas !

Edited By Ady1 on 05/04/2018 02:04:20

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Ady, that is all very well if you knew in advance how things were going to turn out. But practically, the people in command usually don't have enough information to make that sort of decision. The guys on the bridge of the Titanic would not have known if they were aimed directly at the iceberg, or if not, which side they were aimed at. By the time they knew it would have been too late.

There is a piece in the NZ Herald this morning about the sinking of the Wahine 50 years ago. **LINK** It seems that if they had known, they would have been safer to run into the buoy that they saw. But when you don't know exactly where you are, or how close the buoy is to the reef, how do you make that choice?

To get back to aircraft, I think a similar thing applies to the Concorde accident. If the pilots had known what was to come, they would have been better to shut down and put the brakes on. Ok, they were going to fast to stop in the available runway, and would have overrun the end, but it would probably have been better to have their crash there, with some possibility of survival than to struggle into the air and crash into the hotel. But of course there is no way that they could know that. All you can do in those split seconds is what training and experience has shown will usually give the best outcome. Sometimes you will be wrong.

John

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Its seems Ive entered a bit of a clique here, so I willl F– off.

Regards Bob.

Edited By BOB BLACKSHAW on 05/04/2018 04:54:20

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Ady1 on 05/04/2018 01:49:49:

–but it was compounded by the cockpit hierarchy which gave the captain rigid control with the first officer and other crew discouraged from attempting to challenge him.

Had there been freer atmosphere in the cockpit, the accident may well not have happened–

That's rubbish, nothing ever stops a decent junior officer from ever challenging a superior officer

I over ruled a captain on at least one occasion, the poor guy just couldn't handle it but most of the time he was more than capable and more capable than me

It all boils down to the individual and the situation

It isn't rubbish.

Read the official report on the crash.

We aren't talking the UK here, it was a Korean airline, the pilots were ex military, there was a strict hierarchy, and it appears on this flight what the captain said went without challenge, and that was the culture at that time in that airline.

Official report into the crash here **LINK**

Notable parts of the report:

P.72 first para

P.77/8 2.9.5

P.84 (b) 3

P.85 4.1

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

Sometimes a larger ' cockpit gradient' might be a good thing! Many years ago I did not fly aircraft but just repaired them and was the sole passenger aboard a battered old small twin transport crewed by two crusty old Warrant Officers, approaching Benghazi or maybe El Adem , I forget which. Anyway I was aroused from my slumbers by the change in engine noise and the rattle of gear and flaps deploying, and heard through my headset a monstrous, heated argument between the two drivers who were f….ing and blinding at each other , then a silence, then bouncing with an almighty din and clattering along the underside of the aeroplane, more bouncing, clattering and revving up of the engines, I had automatically braced myself for impact but was relieved to hear the normal squeal of rubber on tarmac.

It transpired that because they were arguing about who had control we had touched down in the undershoot causing a stack of stone damage to the flaps. A large supply of beer tokens was made available tor me to get the flaps repaired 'quietly' alongside the other work I had to do before we returned to base.

Trevor

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Bob Blackshaw – you will possibly get more information if you post that query on http://www.pprune.org – Non-Airline Forums/Accidents and Close Calls. There are some very knowledgeable aviation 'buffs' posting there with a remarkable wealth of historical data.

rgds

Bill

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Bob Blackshaw – further to the above – this looks promising!!

**LINK**

rgds

Bill

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Very much appreciated Bill. I was twelve at the time, and I remember my father not around at Christmas. With the pilot looking like a lump of cork,obviously my father at the time was not pulling my leg. And another good site to visit when on the night shift [part time].

Bob

[george AldousParticipant @georgealdous13656]

@ bob

it was a hs125 jet crashed in sept 1967, luckily the car plant was shut it says in this report scroll down to 164 in blue.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1969/mar/17/luton-airport

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Thanks George, that's another site to look at when on nights.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Today I watched two Biplanes circling over Old Warden about five miles away, I couldn't make out what they were but they were up for about thirty minutes. The museum tested their spitfire recently after a major rebuild.

Martin P

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by Ady1 on 05/04/2018 01:49:49:

–but it was compounded by the cockpit hierarchy which gave the captain rigid control with the first officer and other crew discouraged from attempting to challenge him.

Had there been freer atmosphere in the cockpit, the accident may well not have happened–

That's rubbish, nothing ever stops a decent junior officer from ever challenging a superior officer

I over ruled a captain on at least one occasion, the poor guy just couldn't handle it but most of the time he was more than capable and more capable than me

It all boils down to the individual and the situation

The co-pilot of a BAC111 failed to challenge his captain when the aircraft entered a deep stall after take off and crashed near Runnymede with the loss of all passengers and crew.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Just come across this – **LINK**

Interesting concept .

rgds

Bill

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I've seen model aircraft that fly with rotating cylinders as wings.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

That's pretty neat, although I don't imagine it's very efficient, so little use in commercial applications. There's an engineer in the making….

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Gone in an instant.

These four aircraft passed overhead on ANZAC Day south east of Melbourne.

This picture was a single frame snapshot, the best I could muster.

What are they?

Sam

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

North American T6 Texan's, uk Harvards

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Or, given Sam's location, possibly CAC Wirraways.

**LINK**

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by mgnbuk on 25/04/2018 08:33:08:

Or, given Sam's location, possibly CAC Wirraways.

**LINK**

That settles a doubt in my mind, the two nose to tails are Harvards and the other two are Wirraways, the Harvards rear wings are radiused the others are clipped square.

Martin P

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Harvards and Wirriways have the same shape tail plan form, the aircraft on the left and right also have a different wing shape. With a little research I would say the other two are Yac 52, these are Russian tail draggers of a similar shape to the NA Harvard.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 25/04/2018 11:32:45

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Ian – sounds reasonable. There appears to be a number of Yaks flying in your area. Wasn't there a bit of a 'coming together' of one with a cherrypicker at Wanaka recently?

rgds

Bill

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I've just blown the picture up and the left and right pair are YAK 52's but they have tricycle undercarrages which dont fold into the aircraft.

Martin P

[Hi Speed ScrapParticipant @hispeedscrap]

Winjeels

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