Aircraft General Discussion

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Ian ,

This is not a silly question and I would really like to know the answer :

Do you know what type of glue they were allowed to use for the Mosquito rebuild ???

There was discussion over many years in aviation circles as to whether a rebuilt Mosquito could ever be cleared to fly – mainly due to problem of getting design approval for glued structural joints in wood in any case and whether original specification glue was allowed to be or needed to be replaced by modern day adhesives .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 28/04/2012 15:21:24

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I remember reading somewhere that the glue used on the Mosquito was a form of Epoxy resin (Araldite)

It is possible to get Epoxy resins that do not go hard/brittle. These are used on glass components that sit in metal holders, prisms in mounts and glass windows in bodies.

Another form is used in boat building so that the wood can flex, this from an Americam Boat Building magazine.

So it would seem that Epoxy resin would be the answer.

Clive

[Geoff SheppardParticipant @geoffsheppard46476]

Back to the topic of Avro Vulcans.

For many years now, my local model engineering society has organised a late summer holiday (usually a week-long coach trip) and we have ventured all over the UK and Europe. Last year we were based near York and did all the local attractions, particularly the North York Moors Railway and the National Railway Museum. We also went to the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington.

As our coach driver checked in, the volunteers on the gate said that we may be in for a special treat as the preserved Vulcan was due to over-fly, en route to Scotland. Sure enough, at about mid-day, she appeared and gave us a quarter-hour aerobatic (for a Vulcan!) display. Magnificent.

At least four of us in the party had worked at Patchway, so there were lumps in throats. Even my wife, who has never been a raving aircraft enthusiast, admitted that she could now understand our fascination. Quite a day.

Can thoroughly recommend a visit to Elvington.

Geoff

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

I thought that the original Mosquitos were built using somethink like urea-formaldahyde. They did change it to a different spec for the tropics. I used to work with someone who was with the RAF in India, he said that they just fell apart in the humidity.

Ian

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Did the Vulcan roll? Something that big inverted is a helluva sight!

Neil

[Geoff SheppardParticipant @geoffsheppard46476]

No, Neil, they didn't take it quite that far. I guess that they are concious that they have something rather special on their hands, and don't want to risk damaging it.

Geoff

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

The Vulcan XH558 has been test flown from it's Doncaster base after Winter servicing, still needs funds to fly the busy season ahead.

News on the website.

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/

 

On BBC news this morning there was a feature on the Vulcan, and fleet of Victors to refuel it (and each other) which bombed Port Stanley runway to stop the Argentinians using it, featured some great footage of Vulcan flying.

My how quickly those thirty years have gone !

 

Edited By V8Eng on 28/04/2012 18:02:11

[Anonymous]

As far as I'm aware the early Mosquitos were made using casein glue, based on a protein from milk. This glue was widely used prior to WWII, but had problems when exposed to tropical conditions. As a result new glues based on urea formaldehyde were developed for the Mosquito. The two glues that I've used for aircraft are Aerolite (urea formaldehyde) and Aerodux (phenol resorcinol), both of which are still available.

If you browse the beginning of this thread you'll find a more detailed discussion on aircraft glues.

Regards,

Andrew

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Thanks for replies .

I am already familiar with glues as used for airframe construction and as used originally for Mosquito . What I would really like to know is what has actually been used in the Mosquito rebuild mentioned by Ian SC in his post above .

On another sticky subject is there anyone out there with personal experience of the Redux process ?

Michael Williams .

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Does Aliphatic Resin sound right, they are using epoxy any way. The first fusilage went to Canada for a static display A/C, one is to go to Austrailia as KA 114 a FB 24 (Aussie built), the museum is rebuilding a static display A/C, the other one being built is also an Aussie built one NZ 2308 a T 43 (similar to a T-3), those two will be flyers. As mentioned on the web site when you rebuild a wooden A/C you can't reuse the wood, but they have two shipping containers full of metal parts,and theres a heck of a lot of metal in an all wooden A/C. I think the first Mossie might fly in Sept this year.

Its a wonder no one has built a replica, maybe not full size, carbon fibre instead of wood perhaps. Big model aeroplane, well there are squadrons of WW1 aircraft (British and German) in NZ, plus replica Mustangs, Hurricane, and others. Ian S C

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Ian ,

Thanks for that .

Aliphatic resin glue seems to be an improved general purpose woodworking glue .

http://newtowoodworking.com/aliphatic-resin-glue/

Q: As mentioned on the web site when you rebuild a wooden A/C you can't reuse the wood,

You may be aware that if too many things are changed in design or material specification on a rebuild aircraft it ceases to be a rebuild and becomes a new aircraft type with all the problems that entails . The original debate was about how far any major structural repair or full rebuild could adapt modern techniques and materials whilst still keeping within the spirit of the original Mosquito design .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi Andy & Guys
My Son worked on a Sunderland flying boat down a Calshot before it was flown to the USA . I was great inside . In the US they were going to change it back to wartime livery with guns etc.
He worked a Booker airfield at the time .
Nobby

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Michael Williams asked if anyone had personal experience of the Redux process. When I did my apprenticeship way back in the '60's the company was making hovercraft. Most of the large panels were stiffened by the the use of folded stringers of witches hat section bonded to large flat sheets which were up to 8 feet long. At the time we were told that they were bonded using the Redux process, which was (we were told) an epoxy based adhesive. The stringers had the adhesive applied by roller, they were placed in position, an "anti-tear" pop rivet placed at each end of the stringer, the whole assembly was then placed in a press which applied heat and pressure. Test samples were made of each adhesive mix, and after curing were subjected to a standard peel test. After curing the hollow stringers were filled with expanding two part foam. The bigger panels were full sheet size, I suppose 8' x 4', from memory (it was all nearly 50 years ago) and had a stringer about every 6 or 8". The panel and stringer material thickness was about 18swg (0.048" ? thick) the whole panels were as stiff as a really stiff thing and very light.

If you can find any pictures of an SRN4 hovercraft, pretty much the whole exterior utilised these panels.

I've just put "Redux Process" into Wikipedia, it's worth a look!!

cheers

Bill Pudney

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The only thing I know of Redux is that it is the glue they stuck the Viscounts together with,it seemed to work, not too many of them fell to bits.

The Aussies are sticking their (static display) Mossie together with Aerodux epoxy glues are not approved for aircraft structural use in Austrailia, but OK in NZ, The NZ airframe is a complete build on localy made forms, I saw a vidio about it—amazing.(I'll have a look and see if I can find the web site) Ian S C

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Thanks Bill and Ian .

The Redux process was used at BAC Bristol but I never actually saw it being done .

Rarely heard of now though there is still extensive use of other adhesive bonding methods in aircraft manufacture .

Regards ,

Michael Wiliams .

PS : Bill – you are one of only a very few people that I've come across that actually worked at Saunders Roe on hovercraft . Myself and I'm sure other people would be very interested to hear more .

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 30/04/2012 09:28:40

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

All I know about Redux is that I was not allowed to be in the Redux shed, because " they" thaught I might be allergic to it.This was at DH Hatfield. So I can only assume it must be pretty savage stuff.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

The best demonstration I ever saw with a Vulcan was at Farnborough, when having taken off, levelled and then the tail "appeared" to swing down as she went up in what looked like as near vertical as you could expect, a fantastic (and noisy) display of raw power.  At one time, some time ago,  I was on a RAF station working under a Vulcan when they scrambled a flight, now that was an earful as well.

 

Edited By KWIL on 30/04/2012 14:08:36

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

From my latest delving into google, the Kiwi built Mossies use West Systems Epoxy for the fusilage, and Araldite for the wings, there seems to be arguments all over the world about the use of epoxy for aircraft use, but I think NZ follows the USA in its use. The only glues alowed in UK are Aerodux and Aerolite. Its worth looking on google for aircraft builing in New Zealand.  Look at the Vintage Aviator Ltd site, they are building (with modern materials), with the origional engines (even if they have built one from scratch), Sopwith Triplane and Snipe, FE-2B,SE-5A, Fokker DV-III and DV-VA, Albatros, Nieuport, BE-2C, and at least one Oberursel rotary engine (full scale).  Ithink Peter Jackson (Lord Of The Rings etc) has more than a wee bit to do with this enterprise.    Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 30/04/2012 16:55:14

[Joseph RamonParticipant @josephramon28170]

The protoype Vulcan was notoriously rolled. Some were rolled at airshows but had to have structural checks afterwards.

Joey

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

We used the Redux process at BAC (Vickers) Weybridge on VC10 and BAC 1-11 (Vickers commercial type 10 and BAC 1st – 11th Vickers Commercial !!)

In 1965, we were making fuselage panels easily 8 x 4 foot in size with up to 5 layers thick around cargo door frames etc. The panels were profile stretched and then routed to shape. Each layer was laid on a former, coated with the Araldite type mix and then the next layer added until the complete panel was sandwiched together. A heavy rubber sheet was laid over the complete panel, vaccum applied to squeeze it all together and then rolled into a huge tubilar autoclave with giant oven doors at each end and 'steam' baked for a few hours. So glue thickness was pretty thin but homogenius.

I remember that the 'glue' was two part as we would beg a cup of the stuff (2 cups) to hold our old Ford 8 and Austin 7 cars together and it would not be the first time we arrived home with a duffle bag with a new epoxy coating to the inside !! I can still remember the buiscuity smell of the Redux shop – lovely.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Michael Williams asked about working on Hovercraft. Crikey where do I start?? In 1964 when I started there, hovercraft were out of the experimental stage, and getting into the development stage. In fact they were pretty much in that until after I left in 1969.

Saunders Roe were basically an aircraft company (remember the Princess flying boat, SR53 rocket/jet experimental interceptor….M2.2 climbing at 45 degrees!! and the Black Knight rocket) so obviously their Hovercraft used a lot of aircraft techniques in construction.

In 1964 the Big Thing that I was aware of was skirt development. At the time (hovercraft) skirts weren't very flexible, and had a very short life and involved a very high level of maintenance. The skirt material would delaminate and flog itself to shreds. In the building next to the dormitory I was in (Saunders Roe was in East Cowes on the Isle of Wight, and they maintained an Apprentice Hostel for their mainland Apprentices) was the wind tunnel. Attached to the out side of that building was something called a "Flapping Rig" where samples of skirt material could be flapped to death, At the beginning skirt material would last maybe 1 hour, Avon (the tyre company) developed a thin, flexible, relatively light material. It took two or three years, but eventually the Flapping Rig was running continuously. Technically this was a great achievement, but the rig was very noisy…imagine a piece of neoprene/cloth laminations three feet by two feet or thereabouts and 2.5mm thick flapping in an 80 knot breeze! We were expected to sleep forty feet away from it.

Then there was the story of training Hovercraft pilots. When performing a turn Hovercraft drift downwind, so when performing consequtive 360 degree turns you can imagine that the hovercrafts course would look a bit like a spring. So there was the hovercraft with it's Middle East Trainee Pilot, doing consecutive 360 degree turns, drifting slowly down on a bloke fishing from a small dinghy, it was the Solent after all. The instructor a bit concerned asks trainee if trainee had seen the fisherman,

"Yes" says trainee,

"Are you going to take avoiding action" says Instructor

"No, its only a fisherman" says Trainee, whereupon Instructor takes over control.

When SRN4-001 was finished, before she could start flight trials the Board of Trade required that she complete a 24 hour full power tethered trial. This was started on a Saturday and could be heard all over Cowes, East and West. Now four Proteus gas turbines, driving four 19 foot diameter paddle blade props, and four huge fans makes a lot of noise, but I don't recall any complaints.

Then there was the story about the SRN4 when on test flights. The story goes something like…..

SRN4-001 was on trials in the Channel, some way South of the IOW, when up comes an RN Patrol Boat. There was some confusion as to whether it was a "Dark" Class boat or "Tenacity", but anyway. Being very polite the RN Skipper asks of the hovercraft "everything ok", sees that all is indeed ok and starts to accelerate away. Whereupon the SRN4 accelerated up to its maximum speed (which was well over its Board of Trade limited speed, but that hadn't been imposed yet) and flew past the patrol boat. It was apparently that trip that the Hovercraft achieved its highest speed, something over 80 knots.

In the Machine Shop was a huge long skinny mill, the bed of which was probably over 70 feet long which was used for machining wing spars. It was designed and built to machine the wing spars for the Princess. This machine was installed in the corner of the shop, closest to the sea wall, which was probably about 40 feet away. I assumed that the tide tables on the wall were for general interest, but no. The tidal rise and fall made the bed move up and down, and the only operator who could make any sense of it, apparently used to suck his teeth, pull his chin and mutter, then as the straddle mill was working its way down the bed would crank in a bit here and crank out a bit there….amazing.

Anyway its past my bedtime

cheers

Bill Pudney

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Thanks for that Bill, I suppose that today the mill could be hooked up to a computor that could compensate the tidal fluctuations. Ian S C

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Thanks for that Bill – very interesting .

MikeW

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The latest vintage rebuild to get its C of A in NZ is a Mk 1 Avro Anson bomber, it was bought from an austrailian museum about 10 years ago, should be an interesting machine. Ian S C

[Geoff SheppardParticipant @geoffsheppard46476]

Bill Pudney's tale of the wing spar mill is of particular interest because last week I was able to spend some time on the Isle of Wight looking at places of interest. We visited the rocket testing site above the Needles, had a good poke about and took some photos.

At dinner that evening, one of the other guests at the hotel (a nonagenarian professor who still gives the occasional lecture!) talked about the construction of the site. Apparently, a large concrete raft had to be laid to a high degree of level and flatness. When cured, it was checked and found to be well out of specification. The contractor re-worked the job, but with exactly the same result. It was after about the third attempt that it was found that the island was always on the move with the tide and that a consistent result was impossible. The wonders of nature!

Geoff

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