Aircraft General Discussion

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

So here is a thread where all the off topic aviation discussion can go. To kick things off , the members of the steam section at Motat in Auckland New Zealand were getting together to have a few pizzas and beers to mark the season, and got invited to use the aviation sections new tea room. One thing lead to another and they ended up showing us through their workshop hanger, where the public does not get to go, and they also opened up a couple of the aircraft for us. So tonight I have sat in the pilots seat of a DC3, as well as one of the passenger seats, then tried out the pilots seat and the tail gunners seat of a Sunderland. The Sunderland looks big enough from outside, it seems even more roomy once you are inside, with the opportunity to go up and downstairs. There are bunks, a little galley, and plenty of room to swing the proverbial cat. I liked the little winch and the anchor stowed on the wall. (Is it a wall or a deckhead?) The little toilet compartment is much bigger than the one in my boat, there is room to stand up and even turn around in there. There is also a Solent there but we didn’t go in that one.

 

As well, we saw some of the aircraft under restoration in the hanger. Let me see, Grumman Avenger, North American Harvard, De Havilland Mosquito. Couple more I can’ t remember. There was a very interesting three cylinder radial engine from an American company, can’t remember the name. They seem pretty well set up for gear, but there is plenty of work do do there, as always at any museum there is more work than there is time, volunteers,  or money to do it in/with. The museum is currently building a new display hanger which will provide a better place to display some of the aircraft.

 

regards

John

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

This is where all the off topic discussion about aeroplanes should go

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Whenever I go to RAF Cosford, to the Air Museum, I always blow a kiss to the TSR2 they have there. I  wear my tie with a TSR2 woven on it. Last time the on duty staff said “Have you seen the new video?” To which I replied ,”filmed at Boscombe Down the first day she flew, I was there!”

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

I took my Dad to see the Liberator when it was at Cosford a few years ago – and lo and behold, there was a picture of his squadron with him in it . . 

 

As he said at the time , ‘I’d never thought I’d turn into a museum exhibit  !’

 

w.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

   John, I may have found the 3 cylinder radial you spoke of, there was on made by Jacob Ellehammer in 1903-4, it was the worlds first radial aircraft engine.  The most likely one is the 55hp 3cylinder radial of 1930.

 

    If I was 40k nearer Christchurch, I would be in boots and all at the RNZAF  Museum at Wigram. If there was no opening there , there is an aviation restoration section at Ferrymead on the other side of Chch.

 

    Kwil, its always sad to see a machine like that, that does’nt make it, but thats politics. Quite a number of people here have a similar feeling here about our Skyhawks and Aermacchi trainers sitting around in moth balls awaiting a buyer, but held up by Penagon sales policy. If you want a Skyhawk for a museum, i think they might be available next year. They have been rebuilt, and the avonics are similar or better than the F16,  they are a bomber, not as a lot of people, including politions think, a fighter.

 

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Aviators

 

Now here is a different thread and should prove an interesting diversion.On the thread in the “other place” I note you were talking about “G” loading.

In a previous life I had a glider with placarded limits of  +7G  to -4G. I never explored these extremes but is did clank and sing as you soared! 

 

Regards

 

Norman 

[Anonymous]

Good grief, +7g and -4g placarded! Must have been a fully aerobatic glider? Given the clanking I’d guess metal, possibly a Pilatus B4?

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

How about the Avro Vulcan? What an amazing sight that is. 

 

There is a UK one kept flying and maintained by The Vulcan To The Sky Trust, they rely on private donations to keep her airworthy.

Watch out for this at some air displays next year.

 

There is a website at.

http://www.vulcantothesky.org

 

Edited By V8Eng on 22/12/2010 16:17:38

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Ah the Vulcan ……………

We moved to Auckley in the 1960’s, just down the road from RAF Finningley when the ‘Blue Steel’ Vulcans were on 4 minute standby 24/7.

It initially took us months to get to sleep with the dulcet tones of them running the engines up all night …………. and the occasional scramble.

 

When they were dispensed with, the silence was shattering, and it took us even longer to get to sleep in the silence that followed.

I’d spend hours after school and at weekends cycling up to the perimeter gates to occasionally watch the beasts being hauled into the skies, and then belt off down the road to Blaxton and sit under the final approach path to watch them floating in to land, what a sight and sound!

Even though I now fully understand how aircraft fly, it still amazes me how such a massive aircraft like that can get off the ground and stay there, and to watch them being reefed around in impossible angles of bank is just awsome.

 

The Domini’s that followed just weren’t the same.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Thanks for kicking off the ‘off topic’ on topic aviation thread John

 

Norman, I’ve brought from the dark side some of the text in a reply that Ian posted ref ‘G’ loadings (wasn’t politic to reply to at the time) …………….

Partial Quote:

 I think the only fatigue problem with the Fletcher is with the fin
attachment, the problem has shown up as the hp has increased from 225hp
to 750hp.  I think it has caused one crash. Structual failure may have
caused some crashes, but regular inspection seems to cover most problem
areas.

End.

 

Ian, with a 3 fold increase in power, and the
tail fin attachment points coincidentally failing, do you think the ag
jockeys were actually performing low level ‘tail slides’ and overcooking
it ………….. gives a whole new meaning to the term ‘taildragger’ ,
maybe they should have put extra wheels on the tail, you could do a
VTOL almost with that power to weight ratio <LOL>

That must have been one hell of a ship to pole around when empty though!

What sort of powerplant do they use?

 

Norman, +7 to -4 G’s are limits I wouldn’t want
to explore without a suit ………… or even in one to be honest, I’d
say the average (quite fit) ppl would either black or red out at half
those figures on a good day.

Most ppl’s I’ve ever flown with almost crapped themselves at
the thought of a practice stall and recovery with maybe +1G, and were
not at all happy with a couple of g’s in a typical 60 deg steep turn.

Many
club and private aircraft have so much sh*t swilling around on the
floor anyway, the slightest hint of negative G would ensure all on board
would be well occupied rubbing crap out their eyes.

It’d be very interesting to see the wing deflection at those limits though ……………. 

Was your glider built from composite materials (fibreglass, carbon fibre etc)? I know that stuff can creak quite a bit!

 

Back in my engineering days, I used to rent a
workshop attached to a glider repair shop, and got to see some quite
scary wreckage that resulted from wings pulling off.

Sometimes the accidents were caused by attachment pins not being secured properly having lost the retaining clips.

Other
times, it was fatigue of some sort that caused attachment plates or hinges to
shear off – these were mostly wooden structures though, where glue
joints had failed.

Have to say, it was quite an eye opener watching some of the airframe repairs, just like building balsa kits ………… but bigger !

Never fancied gliders at all after that!

 

John

 

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

 Hi folk,

 

Talking about wings falling off, have a look at the clip below.

You’ll probably have to copy and paste it.

 

whenitsnotyourtimetodie.wmv

 

Len P.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I have visited Doncaster air museum, Manchester Aviation museum and Newark Air museum.   All fascinating, and I took lots of photos.   Newark has a complete Shackleton, which is one of my favourite aircraft, and a Vulcan, and I used the photos to write an article about air radar, not yet published.

At Newark you can climb inside the Vulcan and the Shackleton, and have them explained.

Cockpits are restricted to real pilots, perhaps to avoid strangers from pulling up the undercarriage, perhaps.   Nevertheless, highly fascinating.   Other aircraft have the cockpits open to all.   I found them very restrictive.

 

Doncaster has the airframe of an Auster.   It doesn’t seem capable of holding itself together, let alone forming an aircraft, it is so flimsy.   Other aircraft are parked outside.   The Lightning seems as tall as a block of flats.

 

Regards

Geoff

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Andrew

 

Quite right – a Pilatus b4 – all aluminium built like, and SMELLING like, a “real” aircraft!

Nice to fly but it certainly “talked” to you!  The airframe would ping and clunk in response to any “G” inducing manoeuvre. I  recall one pretty thermic day, after about an hour pootling around at about 3,000 ft , there was suddenly a loud bang and the whole aircraft shook.  As you will know one makes a quick and considered assessment of the situation in these circumstances and the problem proved to be the wheel , which I had not  locked up properly, decending rapidly due to the turbulence phew  – relax! As far as exploring the “G”  limits not for me – my partner however became a keen aerobatic pilot.

 

John

Well of course lots of turns in gliders are steep of necessity, especially in the narrow thermals often found in this country, so you get used to it . Very exhilarating though when you get set in a good one with the variometer singing and the altimeter whizzing up!

 

Norman

 

 

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Ian,

 

You are right about the Ellehammer, except IIRC correctly it was a 75hp and was dated 1931…I did look at the makers plate and then promptly forgot the name. For those into IC engines, it looked like it would make a nice model.

 

I would have thought that cropdusters and top dressing planes would be more prone to brittle fracture due to exceeding the elastic limit than to fatigue. I heard of one spraying plane where the guy decided to save some runs by doing the field at right angles to the  usual. Only drawback was this meant he had to fly between the powerlines and the fence, but there was enough room, right? After a few runs the inevitable happened, and the enquiry established that he had a clearance of about 1 foot more than the total height of the aircraft. Precision flying indeed.

 

regards

John

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I have some very wonderful aircraft memories…

 

Visiting Saint Athan as a boy and seeing the ME263 and  Vulcan at touching distance.

 

Seeing a Sunderland parked up at Pembroke Dock.

 

The Concorde prototype.

 

Dad getting weepy over the TSR2 (he made two IC powered pusher models of it)

 

The whole earth shaking  as a Phantom put the afterburners on and pulled up directly overhead (I was standing on a wobbly bog at the time)

 

Buzzed by a hawk on the Black Mountain

 

A flight of A10 Warthogs silently appearing from over a wood, barel;y missing the treetops.

 

A flight of Gypsy and Tiger moths going over the garden at about 200 feet on a hot summer weekend.

 

Best of all? Hearing merlins and running outside to see a spitfire and hurricane.

 

Neil

 

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Here you go Neil, just for you, a friend of mine has just happened to send me this:

Airshow

 Enjoy! 

John

Edited By David Clark 1 on 23/12/2010 09:22:24

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

I have seen the Vulcan several times – wow!!

Also seen and heard the Eurofighter. When it goes away and turns so you can see the exhausts, the noise just has to be heard to be believed!

They say Concord was noisy. I was at a Stones concert at the old Wembley anmd looked up to see Concord going over, completely `silent` like a dirigible, the concert was so loud. I`ve now got Tinnitus.

John.

 

[Anonymous]

Norman: Feeling smug here that I guessed the right aircraft! I have flown a Pilatus B4, but not the fully aerobatic version. I did an inspection on one and advised the buyer as to whether he should buy it or not. Which he did, and payment was a flight in it once it was back at our local club. I think I had about an hour and half in it; easy enough to fly, but not one for scraping in weak thermals. Interesting that the official BGA tech sheet claims -4.79g as the negative limit? I haven’t flown many metal gliders, the others being a Blanik, IS29D, IS28 and one no-one will have heard of, the VFW FK3.

 

I reckon on a decent thermalling turn being about 15-20 seconds per circle. Certainly in the UK, if it’s blue, then you’ll need to turn more steeply. And in the mountains, especially low down, you need to turn really steeply. If you don’t you hit the mountain!

 

John (RJW): In my experience composite gliders don’t creak that much, unless they’re made by Schempp Hirth, in which case the canopy frame continually squeaks! When I was learning to power fly we regularly had to demonstrate steep turns. Easy really, just line up the flying wires on the cabane struts with the horizon, and you’ve got about 60° of bank. Also, although spinning wasn’t part of the CAA syllabus at the time, the CFI’s view was that, since the aeroplane we used would spin, it was necessary to demonstrate three turns of a spin in each direction to his satisfaction.

 

At least in a glider you don’t need to worry about the engine stopping! Funny thing, but I’m happy going places in the mountains in a glider that I would never, ever consider in a power ‘plane. Oddly, I’ve also been higher, further and faster in a glider than in a power ‘plane.

 

Stub: Ah yes, the Merlin, sounds just like a bag of nails, and always on the point of stopping! Quite unlike the Griffon. I am fortunate to live a few miles from Duxford, and in the summer we regularly get all sorts of WWII aircraft practising overhead. I spend more time in the garden than working!

 

Right, enough rambling for one evening, bedtime calls. I’m working tomorrow, but on the plus side I’m getting paid to play in the workshop.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 22/12/2010 17:04:49:

 

Doncaster has the airframe of an Auster.   It doesn’t seem capable of holding itself together, let alone forming an aircraft, it is so flimsy.  

 

Oh they do… otherwise I wouldn’t be sitting here typing this! Mind you, taking off into not very much of a headwind meant that you didn’t actually get very far. Interesting exercise getting them back onto the ground again though (taildragger). But I gave up flying years ago – much too expensive for mere paupers.

[adyParticipant @ady]

The Sunderland looks big enough from outside, it seems even more
roomy once you are inside, with the opportunity to go up and
downstairs. There are bunks, a little galley, and plenty of room to
swing the proverbial cat. I liked the little winch and the anchor
stowed on the wall. (Is it a wall or a deckhead?) The little toilet
compartment is much bigger than the one in my boat, there is room to
stand up and even turn around in there. There is also a Solent there
but we didn’t go in that one.

As well, we
saw some of the aircraft under restoration in the hanger. Let me see,
Grumman Avenger, North American Harvard, De Havilland Mosquito.

 

1. Didn’t know any sunderlands were left, they’re huge.

Is it flyable?

 

2. The last airworthy Mosquitoes were grounded a while back, no skills left and no way of telling if old ones were airworthy or new ones were flyable.

 

The film 633 squadron got some of the last castoffs from the RAF.

They torched 1 or two and I remember thinking  “that would be worth about a million quid now” but the wood construction meant they were a product of their time.

(A time when we weren’t a bunch of total dumbasses?)

[adyParticipant @ady]

And don’t get too complicated.

 

I remember building an airfix freedom fighter…and righting it off as too easy.

 

But the design is probably the most successful in the history of the jet age.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5

 

The Northrop F-5A/B Freedom Fighter and F-5E/F Tiger II are part of a family of widely used light supersonic fighter aircraft, designed and built by Northrop
in the United States, beginning in the 1960s. Hundreds remain in
service in air forces around the world in the early 21st Century, and
the type has also been the basis for a number of other aircraft.

[adyParticipant @ady]

So here is a thread where all the off topic aviation discussion can go.

 

How can aviation be an off-topic?

 

While those that squeak the loudest are the most readily heard….there is a massive minority who are happy with things the way they are…

[adyParticipant @ady]

I live in a place where the biggest squealers have managed to completely destroy my society.

 

 It’s called Great Britain…or at least it used to be…

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Hi Ady, There is at least one Sunderland left, but it is not in flyable condition at the moment, and would be a bit of a problem to get to the nearest suitable water. The Solent is of course a civilian version of the same aircraft, and I beleive I would be correct in saying that MOTAT is the only place in the world where you can see them both together. But MOTAT does not have any runway, or any easy access to the water for these flying boats, not does it have the sort of budget that would permit operating them. There is a big new display hangar going up which will mean that some of the collection that has had to live outside will be under cover soon. (There is more than I have mentioned in the existing display hangar, including a Lancaster and a Vampire…can’t remember them all. )

 

So none of the collection is flyable as far as I know, and although I beleive they do try to restore to original condition, it is not likely that they would be able to transport the aircraft to a suitable location to fly. 

 

A glued wooden aircraft like the Mosquito is of course a special problem in itself, since both the glue and the wood is likely to deteriorate, especially the glues they had then. I gather that the French workers building the Fieseler Storch for the Germans used to assist this process by peeing in the glue when nobody was watching.

 

That -4.79 gs….I can just imagine hanging in the straps watching the G meter and making sure it sits on exactly 4.79 and not 4.8!

 

regards

John

 

 

[Howard JonesParticipant @howardjones35282]

john you echo a very common fear but it is a misplaced fear.

the -4.79g you mention is not the failure limit it is the normal operational limit to prevent damage. if the aircraft you mention has a margin of safety of 150% then the structure could be expected to break around -7.2g not -4.79g.

dont be perturbed though. aviation is a specialist engineering environment and many of the fundamental concepts are incorrectly understood by the man in the street.

dont be ofended either. the disciplines of aeronautical engineering are a fascinating study that not many venture into.

[Author]

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