AF socket sets. Are they extinct

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Logic went out the window when head sizes were reduced on war finish machinery, sockets never had the sizes changed so what was written on the socket didn’t fit the fastener expected, BSF always had a smaller head.

Mike

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I always liked Gordon tools of Sheffield. Someone gave me a few of their spanners and sockets a few years ago, and while they are old, they are excellent.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I could never understand why the AF system was not more widely used. It seemed to make a lot more sense than the Whit/Bsf system. You just measured the nut/bolt head,and you had the size required,simple as that,no arsing around.

That idea of One-and-a-half Dia+ 1/8" went out with the steam engine and the oil lamp.

I dont understand the Metric system any better. What is the relationship between a 6mm nut and a no 10 spanner,or a 12mm bolt and a no19 spanner ?

Answers on a postcard please.

Am now going for my tin hat,before the flak starts to fly !!!.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Well the metric is what you said the AF should be to imperial. 6mm threaded fastener, but a 10mm AF spanner.

[HillclimberParticipant @hillclimber]

Andrew, a word from the wise….

Dont get a 1/2" set. Nothing you need to do at the roadside requires anything that large. A 3/8" set will fit better in the boot. Everything in your MGB, by the way is A/F. I like Sears Craftsman stuff, but Kamasa is nice and Hilka is fine.

Then supplement your set with a Laser 4775. Accept no substitutes, as they say. Possibly the most useful tool I ever bought, after a big hammer and a roll of duct tape.

Cheers, Colin

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

+ 1 for Laser + I concur 3/8" drive is adequate for most work. You won't be torqueing up 150lbs at the roadside.

I have Whit/imperial A/F and metric stuff. About time a new system was introduced to make the youngsters buy all the different sizes like us olduns had to !

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Are metric spanner sizes not A/F, too?

All my Britool sockets fit scross the flats of the relevant metric bolt heads! They just don’t always tie up with the same thread sizes and certainly not with the shank size!

I would always carry a 1/2” drive for wheel nuts/studs – and do away with the provided item in the car kit.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by ronan walsh on 11/11/2018 17:07:25:

Well the metric is what you said the AF should be to imperial. 6mm threaded fastener, but a 10mm AF spanner.

That.

One of the things that make metric a pleasure to use is that there are no coded sizes that appear to have been created by a random number generator. Like number or letter drills, dash hose fittings, weird wire gauges or thread sizes.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by not done it yet on 11/11/2018 22:08:22:

I would always carry a 1/2” drive for wheel nuts/studs – and do away with the provided item in the car kit.

Yes, I wouldn't want to have to try and remove wheel nuts that have been anywhere near the average highstreet or backstreet garage with either a 3/8 drive or the wrench supplied with the car. The wheelnuts on my Toyota Corolla are meant to be tightened to 104 N of torque, but the last time (four years ago) that my car had to go into a garage (after someone ran into the back of me) I couldn't budge any of my wheelnuts afterwards even with a 1/2" drive 16" long breaker bar. I suspect the impact wrenches garages now typically use are putting considerably more than 100N torque on most cars' wheel nuts.

I now carry a 900mm long breaker bar for roadside wheel changes.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 11/11/2018 22:57:56

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 11/11/2018 17:00:44:

I could never understand why the AF system was not more widely used. It seemed to make a lot more sense than the Whit/Bsf system. You just measured the nut/bolt head,and you had the size required,simple as that,no arsing around.

That idea of One-and-a-half Dia+ 1/8" went out with the steam engine and the oil lamp.

I dont understand the Metric system any better. What is the relationship between a 6mm nut and a no 10 spanner,or a 12mm bolt and a no19 spanner ?

Answers on a postcard please.

Am now going for my tin hat,before the flak starts to fly !!!.

 

Ok, I'll chuck some flack in your (and other's) general direction:-

A fair amount of the machine tools in my shed and much of what I make have Whitworth and BSF threads. I have no difficulty in seeing what size spanner is needed for a given nut or bolt. Just as If I know it's going to be a unified (not 'AF' ) or metric thread I can see what size spanner to use. If it is not possible to see it, as on the back side of an in-situ motor car engine block, then one might need to try a few sockets to work out which one fits without any slack.

If you need to measure the bolt heads to work it out, the across flats dimensions of Whitworth bolts are readily available. There are even two British Standards listing them. Note the 'British Standard' bit of British Standard Whitworth and British Standard Fine! 

 

grumble, mutter…

Edited By Mark Rand on 12/11/2018 00:49:21

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 11/11/2018 22:31:54:

Posted by ronan walsh on 11/11/2018 17:07:25:

One of the things that make metric a pleasure to use is that there are no coded sizes that appear to have been created by a random number generator. Like number or letter drills, dash hose fittings, weird wire gauges or thread sizes.

Except that there are. I yesterday had to buy two new rollers for a sliding glass door on my house. What size? Well we converted to metric about 40 years ago. So they were a convenient and easy to remember 32mm roller with a 6.35mm axle. Said so right there on the package. Tell me it wasn't easier when we just had to remember we needed an inch-and-a-half roller with a one-quarter inch axle.

And it's not just door rollers, it's everything in the hardware store. Sheets of ply and other wood etc are a nominal 1.2m x 2.4m. Now that really makes life easier does it not? Much easier than trying to work out how many 4' x 8' sheets you need. Not. To complicate things ever further, the 1.2m x 2.4m is nominal only. The actual size as measured with a tape measure is 2.438m x 1.219m. Just happens to be exactly 8.00ft by 4.00ft.

The Yanks have the right idea with metric – let the pointy heads use it for their calculations while the rest of us get on with using the "customary measure" as they call it. Much more user friendly for both camps.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 11/11/2018 22:56:52:

Posted by not done it yet on 11/11/2018 22:08:22:

I would always carry a 1/2” drive for wheel nuts/studs – and do away with the provided item in the car kit.

Yes, I wouldn't want to have to try and remove wheel nuts that have been anywhere near the average highstreet or backstreet garage with either a 3/8 drive or the wrench supplied with the car. The wheelnuts on my Toyota Corolla are meant to be tightened to 104 N of torque, but the last time (four years ago) that my car had to go into a garage (after someone ran into the back of me) I couldn't budge any of my wheelnuts afterwards even with a 1/2" drive 16" long breaker bar. I suspect the impact wrenches garages now typically use are putting considerably more than 100N torque on most cars' wheel nuts.

I now carry a 900mm long breaker bar for roadside wheel changes.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 11/11/2018 22:57:56

+1.

3/8" drive for everything else.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

If I were to nominate a mentor in engineering, I wouldn't start in the USA. With notable exceptions, their liking for big, slow, shiny-chrome motorcycles makes me weep. Their jet engines run roughly, and everything must be cheap. Cars have huge engines, rather than efficient ones, and they don't do 'small'.

Sorry, I'll be better shortly

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 11/11/2018 17:00:44:

I could never understand why the AF system was not more widely used. It seemed to make a lot more sense than the Whit/Bsf system. You just measured the nut/bolt head,and you had the size required,simple as that,no arsing around.

That idea of One-and-a-half Dia+ 1/8" went out with the steam engine and the oil lamp.

I dont understand the Metric system any better. What is the relationship between a 6mm nut and a no 10 spanner,or a 12mm bolt and a no19 spanner ?

Answers on a postcard please.

Am now going for my tin hat,before the flak starts to fly !!!.

the first is 4mm and the second is 7mm

Martin P

[HillclimberParticipant @hillclimber]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 11/11/2018 22:56:52:

I wouldn't want to have to try and remove wheel nuts that have been anywhere near the average highstreet or backstreet garage with either a 3/8 drive or the wrench supplied with the car.

Agree 115% with this. But does Andrew's MGB have wire wheels and knockoffs, I ask myself…..

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 11/11/2018 22:56:52:

Posted by not done it yet on 11/11/2018 22:08:22:

I would always carry a 1/2” drive for wheel nuts/studs – and do away with the provided item in the car kit.

Yes, I wouldn't want to have to try and remove wheel nuts that have been anywhere near the average highstreet or backstreet garage with either a 3/8 drive or the wrench supplied with the car. The wheelnuts on my Toyota Corolla are meant to be tightened to 104 N of torque, but the last time (four years ago) that my car had to go into a garage (after someone ran into the back of me) I couldn't budge any of my wheelnuts afterwards even with a 1/2" drive 16" long breaker bar. I suspect the impact wrenches garages now typically use are putting considerably more than 100N torque on most cars' wheel nuts.

I now carry a 900mm long breaker bar for roadside wheel changes.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 11/11/2018 22:57:56

That's what wheel nut spider wrenches are for

Oh, and a big heavy rubber hammer for persuading modern alloys off the hub

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

My B has Rostyles, I would not touch wire wheels, I have enough trouble with most things and I could well do without wires!

I think that those who recommend 3/8" sockets are optimistic. Some of the stubborn nuts I have encountered need at least !/2" drives if not 3/4"!

Andrew.

[HillclimberParticipant @hillclimber]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 12/11/2018 20:12:37:

I think that those who recommend 3/8" sockets are optimistic.

Andrew.

*experienced*

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

1/4 and 3/8 drive sockets, on their own, are for boys (and girls) with little toys. Together with 1/2 and/or 3/4 drives, the smaller sockets are good where access is limited. A larger drive will work on a smaller fixing, but not so likely the other way round.

The only limit is the weight and/or volume for the larger items.

I doubt there are many fixings larger than 3/4” AF on most cars. (OK, there are 44mm,or 47mm, nuts on the halfshafts/wheel bearings of morris minors!).

I am kitted out with 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1” drives. But I would not be carrying them around, in a car, all the time.

A 12 volt lightweight rattle gun might be the answer for roadside use. Ratchet rings and open enders are always useful for restricted access. As an aside, Landrover nuts and bolts required different sized spanners, so spanners need not be duplicated. Spanner kits had different sizes at each end of the spanner, so there were always two spanners with the same jaw size. Not so, with the more moden ring, with open end, combination spanners. Open enders ( of some form) are always needed for brake pipes.

For a set of spanners, for a specific car, it cannot be too difficult to colour code sockets or spanners, I would have thought? Don’t forget the lead lamp, or wind-up torch for night time repairs.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

At 70 years old if a roadside repair can't be done with a few simple tools the AA get a call.

No excuse for overtight wheel nuts and stuck alloy wheels. Spend a couple of hours one day removing the wheels/cleaning the hub and applying a little anti seize grease. Torque up to correct poundage and the normal kit will undo the nuts.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

For motorcycle work I prefer 1/4 and 3/8 drive sockets but cars seem to have lots of bits that get attacked by rust and need the extra grunt that can be applied with 1/2” drive or bigger. I do not own a breaker bar but as I am not as powerful as I used to be I am thinking of getting one. I dont work on cars much these days as the interest wore off long ago and I prefer to pay someone else to do it now most of the time. It’s funny how manufacturers  have different solutions to things, Honda often use 2 M6 screws to fix the gearbox sprocket but Triumph use a 36mm AF nut and its tight!

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 13/11/2018 09:51:20

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

A 12 volt lightweight rattle gun might be the answer for roadside use

I have found the corded 240v Lidl gun good for wheelnuts but both my cordless Lidl ones failed the random wheelnut test

So I removed all nuts, greased and replaced tthem

Am leaving them a few weeks then testing again

I've also just got a simple torque wrench being sent in the post to test those guns, especially the cordless units, just to see what they are really capable of

Don’t forget the lead lamp, or wind-up torch for night time repairs

Have just found this little beaut at TKmax. It's basically a pocketsized worklight, uses 3xAAA and weighs almost nothing

Edited By Ady1 on 13/11/2018 10:17:19

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

In the wilds of France, you can't call out the AA. Try getting breakdown cover for a near 40 year car used for continental travel! Hence a comprehensive toolkit and loads of spares. French Garages don't use AF either.

Andrew.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

If a 1/2" socket won't move a nut, the angle grinder will (or a nut splitter).

Ian S C

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 13/11/2018 10:17:36:

In the wilds of France, you can't call out the AA.

It's a different system in France. Most, if not all, car insurance includes roadside assistance and recovery. In the event of a breakdown you just call the insurance company and they will send out someone from the nearest approved garage. It seems to work well.

Russell

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