Advice sought on good make of lathe and milling machine

[krevere74Participant @krevere74]

I’ve recently taken up model engineering again after a 30 year gap since my later teenage years and would be grateful for any views on a good make of lathe and milling machine. As a lad, I made a Stuart Turner 10h and 10v as well as a Kiwi 15cc petrol engine. Back then I used my Dad’s Myford (ML2, I think) and an Emco Unimat 3 (which was a prize from the ME exhibition at Ally Pally).

I am planning on making slightly bigger engines now and have just bought a casting set for the Stuart Turner beam engine.

I am looking to buy new machine tools rather than second hand and would be really grateful if you could share your experiences (good or bad) of the UK makes available (I’ve been looking at Warco, Axminster etc).

My budget (including tooling) is £3-4k and my workshop is 12′ x 8′.

TIA

Kelvin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Also worth a look at ARC Eurotrade as they are the more popular choice of supplier for the Sieg machines and general tooling.

If you intend to mostly make stationary steam engines you will soon find that a lot of designs have a 9″ flywheel as this is what could fit in an old Myford’s gap so worth looking at a lathe that can swing that size such as the Warco 250V. It will also have  areasonable ctr height if you want to mount work on the cross slide to use the lathe as a horizontal borer.

Mill wise a Sieg SX3 would go well with it but thats right at the top of your budget so maybe come down to an SX2.7, it’s a bit lighter but still has the capacity for most stationary engines.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

I think you would do well in considering new imported machines rather than used British machines. No doubt there are some little used and excellent examples of Myford lathes around, simply because they are still being manufactured, but as other makes pass between owners over the years they are hardly going to improve. I am not saying that they will not be still capable doing good work in the right hands, just that they will be more likely to be well worn, especially on the slide and leadscrews. I have a workshop full of old British machine tools collected over a lifetime, and I love ’em, but I have to admit they have mostly seen better days and if I were to be starting again buying imported machines from a reputable importer would be a no-brainer.

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Kelvin,

I agree with Jason and Chris, you should look at new imported machines. I have had my 290 lathe (similar to the Warco WM290, might be a bit too expensive for your budget) for over a decade and it has not given me any trouble. My milling machine is similar to the Warco WM16 and it has served me well for well over a decade.

Thor

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The idea of a ‘make’ when buying hobby machine tools isn’t solid ground these days.   In the past, taking British lathes as an example, there were a plethora of individual firms each offering tools of wildly different capabilities, ranging from ‘too cheap’ to ‘too expensive’.  After WW2 Myford dropped a bomb on most of these firms by producing, at reasonable cost, a modern, well-balanced general-purpose and versatile lathe of just the right size for most home workshops.  So for 30 or 40 years the simple answer to ‘what hobby lathe?’, especially in the UK, was Myford.

However, time marched on, and many improvements were made in industrial tool design.   Many of those improvements were aimed at reducing manufacturing cost, which gradually put the older Myford design at a serious cost disadvantage.  Today the hobby market is dominated by rather similar tool designs.  The story goes their design was developed from Western ideas by Soviet Russia, then passed into the public domain via Communist China.   Whatever the reason, much the same machines can be made by anybody with a suitable factory, and in the past many did, causing quality to vary wildly.   Today I believe most hobby lathes and mills are made by two Chinese firms to similar designs,  but neither has a monopoly, and both badge their products to suit the badge owners price point, including “too cheap”.

Another major change is that considerable cost savings are achieved by letting the customer do the final quality checks.   It is cheaper to replace a small percentage of faulty goods that escape from the factory than it is to fully inspect everything.   That means the customer should buy from a source who will make minimum fuss about replacing the odd duff item when one turns up.   To me that means buying from a reputable UK supplier rather than a grey importer.    Also, UK suppliers who want to maintain good customer relationships, are likely to filter out the worst, working with the maker to avoid issues.

My impression is that all the major UK suppliers do the decent thing should the product be defective, though some are more nimble than others.    Personally, I’ve had good support from Warco.  ArcEuro have a particularly good reputation.    Chester sometimes get a mildly bad press, as do the others occasionally, but the forum isn’t full of posts warning folk not to buy from Company ‘X’.

At one time Axminster were more expensive because their price included an extended warranty.  MachineMart isn’t ideal because their  staff are unlikely to know anything about lathes, but you can go and look at them in store.

A bit of expectation management may not go amiss.   To me, spending a few thousand quid is big money, therefore I expect what I buy should be absolutely perfect!   Unfortunately that’s unreal because hobby lathes are built down to a price.   I bet all the UK suppliers have stories about customers expecting far too much of their hobby purchase.  An industrial machine of roughly the same capability will be at least 6x more expensive, be much more heavily built, and able to run flat out for long periods without harm.    In comparison, hobby machines lack finesse, stamina and rigidity.   For what I do hobby limitations don’t matter:  my machines work well-enough provided I operate within their limitations.   Daft I think to expect a hobby lathe to endlessly chew through steel with tool-room accuracy.

I dithered before buying a mini-lathe and have always regretted the time wasted!  I was obsessed with details that turned out not to matter.  Almost any lathe would have done to get me started!   After I’d used it for a few years I was much clearer about what I needed, which was a BIGGER machine.   Such a common experience, that most people should start with the biggest machines they can.

Avoid combination mill/lathes unless absolutely stuffed for space and money.   They don’t perform well compared with separates.

Dave

 

 

[krevere74Participant @krevere74]

Thank you – that’s helpful info 👍

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

It’s lucky that Kelvin has already stated he wants new else this thread would have degenerated into yet another pointless old iron versus Chinese debate.

Kelvin,

Seig machines appear to be much more tolerant electrically wise of accidental overload. The specs for them can be found on the Arc web site.

Not all Chinese machines come from the same factory and some are bulk orderable in varying specs and colours and a cheap one is not the same as an expensive one. Basically you get what you pay for.

Speaking generally be aware that since HP got converted into Kw some makers machines are imported quoting the larger power consumption figure rather than motor output.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Plus one for the ARC Euro Trade machines. Good value for money and truly excellent support.
SWMBO bought me a SX1LP mill for a wedding anniversary (she had some hint’s 🙂 ). After she ordered it they called her to ask if she was sure it was thae right choice as theis is a small high speed machine mostly used for light alloy and “electronics”. She assured them I was in the electronics bracket. After sale support has also been excellent.
It is often said that all Chinese machines are the same. This may be somewhat true of the basic designs, the basic quality depends on what the customer wants and is prepared to pay for.

Robert.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

ArcEuro for me, and good advice from Dave and Robert. Noel.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

FWIW, I would also commend Arc Euro Trade; given the service, and support that they have given to me.

Depending on what you want to do, will decide what machine you choose.

You can do small work on a big machine, but the reverse is more difficult. A small machine may well lack features present on a larger machine, and be less powerful.

I have cut small BA threads, and 5 x 0.5 mm (Using Taps and Dies) in a 12″ x 24″ machine, (Essentially Metric) but also used it for 40 x 1.5 mm and 2.25″ x 8 tpi threads.

If I were in the market for a new lathe, I would most probably go for the Sieg SC4, since the changewheels supplied would also allow me to cut accurate Imperial threads on a Metric machine.

And it looks as if it would do all that immediately comes to mind.

Having used a VFD, the variable speed facility is most appealing.

If the machine is used, as instructed, I can see no reason why the electronis should not be durable.

Abuse will damage any machine.

Howard

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Another vote for the sc4, I upgraded to it from the sc3. A nice machine, and I endorse Arc,s service.

Ian

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

First of all get a bigger shed and insulate it. Once you start filling the current one with machines it is difficult to add insulation or extend it. The biggest lathe is no use if you are too cold to use it and have to shift several lawnmowers to get to the gearbox.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Steer clear of the WMnn style milling machines typically offered by warco amadeal chester.  Reason- columns to bendy and the comically long tables for size of machine, which you will find will waste space in your shed.

Just my opinion, others may vary. I have had to move my 16 to a smaller space and am seriously contemplating cutting a foot off the table!

(Sigh! Still looking for the perfect Centec 2B)

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

The cheap chinese equipment is certainly bendy. I think you just have to account for this in the way you use them – lighter cuts, use carbide tooling and faster speeds and feeds to make up for it.

I would have agreed about the extra long tables… unless you find that project that needs them. I found one so far – skimming a car gearbox – and was very glad of the extra space. But if you never going to use it, the sX 3 seems a nice compromise.

Cheapest chinese (or better) DRO on everything saves huge amount of time for me. Power feed on a long table is very nice to have.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As Jack says used with appropriate size cuts, feeds and spindle speeds any lack of rigidity or grunt from the variable speed motor is not really a problem, if you are intending to make more Stuart or similar type engines then the imported machines will be fine. Well at least they are for me, take a look down this playlist all done on far eastern machines with tooling and cutters from the same part of the world.

 

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Hello Kelvin,

I see some favourable comments for ARC, which I have to concur, but don’t forget Warco.  I’ve had nothing but sterling service from them in the recent past.  I hope that’s still true since Roger Warren has moved on.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Yeah well, not dissin, just sayin. My WM 16 has done OK (despite having to wear ear defenders when running at carbide milling speeds). Anyway, I am stuck with it now unless I can sell a kidney or two.

If I could choose again and was restricted to Chinese iron, I would probably opt for an SX3 as being the closest thing to a proper milling machine available at ‘value’ prices (if starting from scratch, the R8 spindle may not be an issue).

OP makes reference to ‘UK makes’  when actually referring to UK suppliers of imported Chinese machines. Myford Ltd sell the only ‘new’ UK ‘made’ (or at least UK assembled) machines of hobby class that I am aware of, prices starting from about twice the stated budget per base unit (and snowballing rapidly).

Anyway, the OPs budget, even for new import machinery, is pretty modest in comparison to todays hyperinflated prices. If needing to swing 10 inches or larger for ‘bigger’ engines a new lathe thingy will be 2.5 to 3.5 £K which doesn’t leave much for the mill, an SX3 is just possible but the OP will need to get a paper round to fund the purchase of tooling.

As usual caveat emptor when comparing, make sure to consider the total package value. Some retailers price ‘fully tooled up’  with others you may have to pay extra for 4 jaws, steadies, drill chucks, faceplates, screwdriver, delivery etc. You will need decent stands for both which is an extra cost ( no, really, you are better off with a PB unit unless you really want to spend days of your time and even more of your money buggering about with bits of unseasoned 2x4s and weetabix box strength ply from your local DIY outlet).

I have purchased machinery from 4 out of the 5 main  re-sellers to the hobby trade (the exception is Axminster, being rather too pricy imho). In general I have not found much to differentiate any of them in terms of service or support, good or bad. The experience has usually been broadly satisfactory.

 

 

[KEITH BEAUMONTParticipant @keithbeaumont45476]

Martin,  I find your decription of your W16 mill as “bendy”somewhat negative and misleading and wonder just what torture you are putting it through,to arrive at such an opinion. Trying to emulate cutting conditions that you might have used in a profesional instance is not a comparison. These are MODEL making machines and it is “Horses for courses”.

Jason , That is a very impressive line  up of a few weekends work!! I notice though,an absence of a Diesel ,or two?

Keith.

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

I would describe these mills as bendy – when compared with a bridgeport. I think it important to take that on board and treat it accordingly.

Bendy in this case is a negative.

Positives that result from the compormise include cost and weight.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Keith, I did make a pair of engines enlarged from their original 3cc to 5cc, one was Glow and the other Diesel. As I had glow fuel to hand I ran that one when finished but Have not got round to trying the diesel even though I was given half a jam jar of suitable fuel though it is several years old now so may not be any good. Build details on MEM

https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5248.0.html

First of two parts article of getting the most out of a benchtop mill in the latest MEW just out, where I talk about the approach needed to get the most out of them, part two pushes them even further.

Video that goes with part 1

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1Participant @hughstewart-smith1]

Kelvin,

If you are still looking for a suitable milling machine Amadeal has just filled a container, now in Nanjing, and includes our VM25LV with 3-axis DRO, X-axis power feed as well a Z-axis powerfeed and available in around 2 months time.

I won’t comment upon whether either the column or bed are bendy, although I have no reason to think they are, but it shouldn’t bend your budget.

Hugh                                                                                                                                                         Amadeal

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Poor specification is one of the ways in which Model Engineers diverge from the professionals; we are extremely fond of shorthand words that are almost meaningless without specification!

My favourite is ‘quality’.   On it’s own the word is meaningless.   What ‘quality’ means depends on the application:  a dirt cheap plastic quartz watch is a good bet when gardening, whilst a high-end Rolex won’t impress a Billionaire watch aficionado – he wants really expensive bling.    What defines quality are factors like reliability, accuracy and precision.   Also, professional engineers are supposed to be cost-conscious, buying tools that are ‘fit for purpose’ and ‘value for money’ having decided what they mean by the those two terms.

‘Bendy’ is another example.   We all know that more rigid a machine tool is the better.   What we may not realise is that all machine tools are bendy.   So are skyscrapers, supertankers, and anything else that carries a load.  In amateur circles the Bridgeport mill is considered the bees knees, not surprising because they are versatile, sturdily built and reassuringly expensive.  However, in the world of professional machinists, the Bridgeport is a small machine, very bendy compared with industrial mills weighing many tons.

My workshop is too small for a Bridgeport, so I have to compromise!  I own a WM18, which is an example of a common milling machine configuration consisting of a simple base, XY table, and a rectangular column supporting a movable head with quill:

 

 

This layout allows for a largish workspace, which is good, but the column isn’t as stiff as a Bridgeport, which also benefits from a lifting knee.   But note that although the Bridgeport is considerably beefed up compared with a WM18-style, it still has bendy features.   It’s better, not perfect.

 

 

No point in me weeping over a Bridgeport I can’t have!   The WM18 is a worthy compromise.   All I have to do is drive within it’s limitations,  mainly by avoiding depth of cut and feed rates that overstress the machine.   Varies with the job:   the machine is noticeably unhappy cutting with a fully extended quill.  So don’t do it!

In my experience the WM18 style does a reasonable job, though it’s important to manage expectations.  Don’t expect hobby machines to do long heavy accurate sessions.   Getting the best out of them requires a genteel approach, adjusting for best results, not assuming anything.   I find my hobby machines all have a sweet spot;  too gentle and too heavy are both bad.

I suspect a machinist trained on a WM18-style machine would have no trouble transferring to a Bridgeport.  But a man spoiled rotten by training on a Bridgeport would have to recalibrate himself to get the best out of a WM18.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’m glad you said that Dave as I was beginning to think I wasted my time writing the articles about getting the most out of the benchtop mills due to them not being as rigid as a larger machine and it seems Hugh has been able to source more sturdy ones. Just hope it won’t come back to bite his bum if a customer puts a clock against the column or fully extended end of the table and pushes against it as they may want a refund😉

[Anonymous]

Personally I would consider a Bridgeport to be flexible. But I am prepared to accept that in return for the flexibility, in the sense of being versatile, when it comes to awkward machining jobs.

What we can say about the Warco mill is that it is poorly designed. Looking at industrial milling machines the column is deeper than it is wide. The Warco is the other way round, which means it is less stiff than it could be. Stiffness is not just a case of more metal, the metal needs to be in the correct place.

Andrew

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