Advice on Choosing A Mini Lathe

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

And read before sending! – discussion so commonly seen on much social media. You probably got that meaning!

Stuart

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Stuart Munro 1 on 16/04/2021 06:52:13:

I will just leave with one contentious question, if smileys are edited out, why put the function in the site?

There is a problem with the site's software that can put unwanted smileys where they are not wanted for example if someone gives a dimension in metric and then adds the imperial conversion in brackets afterwards then the " and the ) think it is the code for a smiley. This does not show until the post is submitted which means going back to edit the post which is what Dave did not like.

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

Jason,

All too true re unwanted smileys where they were not intended. I also feel they are much overused but occasionally they can indicate that a comment in 'tongue in cheek' But hey were getting too far off topic.

As a learner of engineering I would welcome similar focussed discussions led by someone with knowledge such as Neil or Dave (perhaps yourself). Can I suggest a couple of topics?

1. Cutting metal accurately – seen some discussions but bringing this together with the types of machines or tools, their strengths and weaknesses etc would be a great help.

2. Milling Bits – the plethora of flute types, end shapes, materials, indexed etc would also be an interesting discussion with members contributing their hard won experiences.

Perhaps these already exist but there is so much useful information here that to search it all would take incredible time. I've tried but start to get engrossed in every other blog!

Thanks

Stuart

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

Jason, another comment on Mini Lathes; when I chose a Sherline i read a very useful comment that seems to be wise: You can have accuracy, price or functions but rarely all 3. ie if you want accuracy it will cost you more, or you lose functionality.

Alas – Sherlines may be a surgical instrument but only in the hands of someone who can use them accurately, for a learner such as me they are no more accurate than hand file. but I enjoy practicing.

Stuart

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Stuart Munro 1 on 16/04/2021 06:52:13:

…

I can see and agree with the aim of a single category discussion such as this, yet also agree with those (I was one of them) who sought to define the edges of the 'Chinese family mini-lathe' by exploring the options around that are in many ways similar, yet still different. Indeed this must be of great help to those considering the purchase of a mini-lathe.

…

Stuart

I sympathise because I started without a clear idea of what I wanted a lathe for!

As an ex-software engineer I'm trained to insist on Formal Requirements rather than go with whatever solutions the customer offers. Most users tune into stuff they like they look of rather than do a hard-work analysis of actual need! The ignorance is bliss approach works well with consumer items like teapots, shoes, and motor cars, but failing to define requirements fails as soon as the answer has to address any kind of speciality. Machine tools are a case in point.

Best to define what the lathe is for before choosing one if you can. Much easier to advise when a newcomer asks:

• I want to make clocks; what sort of lathe should I buy? Or,
• I want to repair traction engines, what sort of lathe do I need?

Knowing the requirement is only the start. It sets a baseline against which compromises will be made. Nasty constraints like money, space, availability, and domestic authority!

Not knowing a newcomers limitations or purpose makes it hard to answer Sherline vs Mini-lathe type questions in isolation. If the questioner works on model railways under the stairs, a Sherline is a good bet, but it isn't a motor-bike mending bruiser! And maybe Sherline isn't good enough either, a Cowells is needed.

Best general lathe advice is to get the biggest you can afford: it's because big machines can tackle large work whilst still being able to do small stuff. But small work on a big lathe isn't comfortable, which is why some own more than one.

A mini-lathe is the biggest machine I consider sensible in a domestic setting: they'll sit on a dining table or spare bedroom and are fairly quiet unless the job chatters. But a big mini-lathe makes far more mess than a Sherline, and a weakling like me wouldn't want to lift one on my own. (No problem for two weaklings!) Ideally a mini-lathe goes in a dedicated workshop, and anything bigger definitely should. And the workshop should be dry and comfortable with adequate power and good lighting, plus a workbench, vice and all the rest. The budget has to tackle that too, maybe over several years.

Practically, the Mini-lathe, next size up Far-Eastern, Myfords and similar are all about the right size and capability for a small dedicated workshop doing mid-range work.

There are always exceptions. If a newcomer doesn't quite know what the lathe is for, I suggest the answer is to buy general purpose and experiment. With hindsight I dithered too long before buying a mini-lathe and getting stuck in. Using one taught me far more than reading about them; I found many books and opinions only made sense after using one in anger. The mini-lathe is a good "don't know what I want" learner machine: not too small and has screw-cutting and the other basics. Availability and relatively low cost new are big advantages for a beginner. Doesn't mean mini-lathes are perfect. Far from it. Although they do the job, they are quite rough, likely to annoy chaps brought up on smooth professional gear.

To me buying the best you can afford and making it last a life-time is an out-moded idea. Dates to a time when there was a sharp divide between good and bad tools. Not so today: we are surrounded by medium grade tools, fairly decent, but not intended to last. Made to be used and replaced, not cherished. So, I bought a mini-lathe fully expecting to replace it. 3 years later I changed up because it was too small, not because it was junk. At the time, it was convenient to buy the biggest Chinese lathe that could be squeezed into my workshop with a milling machine. Buying new eliminated all the bother and risk associated with second-hand, which back then I didn't have time for. I got a WM280 fully expecting to replace it later with an ex-industrial machine, but in practice it does all I need, and I haven't bothered.

Not many of these considerations involve make or country of origin! To my mind it's a mistake to eliminate technical options based on secondary considerations like brand too soon. Though reasonable for hobbyists to spend their money as they want, at least try to recognise the difference between logic and emotion. Although supposed to be cold evidence based thinkers, several studies have shown purchasing decisions made by grizzled engineers are positively influenced by scantily clad young ladies draped over the equipment. This is true even after the fools have loudly denounced the girlies as an obvious attempt to influence them! We are all human. The important thing is to enjoy the hobby.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/04/2021 11:45:22

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Stuart Munro 1 on 16/04/2021 10:46:38:

Jason,

All too true re unwanted smileys where they were not intended. I also feel they are much overused but occasionally they can indicate that a comment in 'tongue in cheek' But hey were getting too far off topic.

As a learner of engineering I would welcome similar focussed discussions led by someone with knowledge such as Neil or Dave (perhaps yourself). Can I suggest a couple of topics?

1. Cutting metal accurately – seen some discussions but bringing this together with the types of machines or tools, their strengths and weaknesses etc would be a great help.

2. Milling Bits – the plethora of flute types, end shapes, materials, indexed etc would also be an interesting discussion with members contributing their hard won experiences.

Perhaps these already exist but there is so much useful information here that to search it all would take incredible time. I've tried but start to get engrossed in every other blog!

Thanks

Stuart

There's a very effective Google search box on the home page.

If that doesn't come up with the answer, then start a thread asking the question under the right topic, a clear thread title helps get germane answers.

Neil

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

Dave, a beautiful smiley!

I actually worked as a corporate analysts so tend to over analyse everything, from buying a new lathe to quotes on smileys . What I didn't do is work or train as an engineer so I soak up everything I can find – hence the desire for more single category topics (Neil I will go hunting and will start a thread on mill bits).

The Sherline works for me because it is small and sort of tidy. I knew I would never build a railway engine but instead manufacture small components for radio controlled scale model yachts. Most boat modellers use wood with limited brass components that can be fashioned by hand. I've already found the Sherline mill invaluable for making things from metal, that were metal in reality. But my scale is small.

Where I am wrong is knowing that I would never build a railway engine, s the fun of engineering grows I'm getting tempted towards models that require more engineering. Initially steam powered boats look attractive but who knows. I now see that never, is not always never.

so I fully agree that buying a machine that will last for ever is not always the best answer, and just maybe a mini-lathe would have been better suited to my needs.

Now, how do I go about getting that domestic authority that you mention, for a lathe/mill upgrade? I've had a larger (insulated, heated and comfortable) shed approved so what to put in it?

Regards

Stuart

[Rich2502Participant @rich2502]

How do the small vintage machines like Dummonds etc fit into this? I don't like the cheap toy look and feel of Chinese mini lathes for the hundreds they cost, I would rather put the money into restoring and upgrading a nice bit of vintage cast iron.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Rich2502 on 06/05/2022 00:40:43:

How do the small vintage machines like Dummonds etc fit into this? I don't like the cheap toy look and feel of Chinese mini lathes for the hundreds they cost, I would rather put the money into restoring and upgrading a nice bit of vintage cast iron.

A Drummond is not a mini-lathe. Mini-lathes are several orders of magnitude smaller. Best start a separate thread if you want to go down that road. Or search the many past threads on the topic. And be aware that restoring a lathe is not a beginner project.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

For years, I hankerd after a lathe, and eventually bought a "Previously owned" Myford ML7.

Because it was lathe that I knew was used by lots of model engineers, and in some industrial tool;rooms.

I had NO idea of the use to which the lathe would be put. other than being confident that it would be a very useful machine.

As I started to use it, I found that more and more jobs could be done on it. But some exposed, in my view limitations, so as I retired I bought a larger Taiwanese lathe, which was even more versatile.

As a bit of an extravagance, I bought, secondhand, a mini lathe. It does not see a lot of use, but there are times that it is used for jobs to prevent breaking down a set up on the gig 'un.. On it's own, it would be an extremely useful machine.

Yes, some Far Eastern lathes need a bit of fine tuning to get the best out of them, but so will a worn old British, American or German machine!.

The vital thing is "Will it do what is required of it"?

If the answer is "Yes", it is fit for purpose.

Especially when yo recall that "Many a good tune can be played on an old fiddle"

A skilled operator can produce good work off an old machine where a novice may fail so to do on a new machine.

Howard

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Rich2502 on 06/05/2022 00:40:43:

How do the small vintage machines like Drummonds etc fit into this? I don't like the cheap toy look and feel of Chinese mini lathes for the hundreds they cost, I would rather put the money into restoring and upgrading a nice bit of vintage cast iron.

I have a Drummond Roundbed Lathe that was a basket case when I bought it, but worked just enough to maintain my interest until bought a mini lathe.

The saddle was cracked on the Drummond but useable, however I have found a replacement – but it has taken 5 years!! The Drummond lacks many features of the mini lathe but as a piece of 'Old Iron' as you describe it it does have a nicer and more satisfying feel – but to turn metal I want features, not feel!

An older lathe may not have a high enough spindle speed to turn small items efficiently using carbide tooling – and my Drummond, without backgear, does not go slow enough to turn larger cast iron pieces either!

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 07/05/2022 09:31:22

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 06/05/2022 19:16:19:

For years, I hankered after a lathe, and eventually bought a "Previously owned" Myford ML7.

Because it was lathe that I knew was used by lots of model engineers, and in some industrial tool rooms.

A skilled operator can produce good work off an old machine where a novice may fail so to do on a new machine.

Twenty years ago, I decided that I should have my own lathe rather than pestering friends to make my random parts. It had to fit on a bench, and Myford was the only name I'd heard of. So I went and looked at several listed in the local Freeads. Buying any one of them would have been a mistake for someone who had never used a lathe before, as they had been animals they would have been booked in for a oneway trip to the vet. Looking back, even if I looked at them now I'd walk away laughing at the audacity of some people to encourage a buyer to look at their festering scrap.

I had jobs to do, so eventually walked into Machine Mart and bought a CL300 mini lathe for a third of the price of the cheapest scrap I'd looked at. An hour after getting home, I'd made my first, very simple, parts. Fifteen years later I upgraded to a larger machine(mainly to improve productivity) and sold the CL300 and most of the accessories for what I'd originally paid for the lathe.

The point of this ramble is that an inexperienced user is going to really struggle learning on a machine that would challenge a competent operator. And that a mini lathe is a very handy thing to have even though they're a lot more expensive than they used to. The sheer portability of the thing is particularly handy, as it can easily be moved on and off the bench as necessary.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ian B. on 08/05/2022 07:48:39:

I am a fan of the "mini lathe" concept. I have had a Clarke machine and literally wore it out. Fully up specced to Dave Fenners books. The parts to reinstate were far too expensive and I bought another machine …

That's interesting. How many years did it take to wear it out? And how much use did it get in that time? And what were the parts that wore out beyond economical repair/replacement?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 08/05/2022 08:41:22:

Posted by Ian B. on 08/05/2022 07:48:39:

I am a fan of the "mini lathe" concept. I have had a Clarke machine and literally wore it out. Fully up specced to Dave Fenners books. The parts to reinstate were far too expensive and I bought another machine …

That's interesting. How many years did it take to wear it out? And how much use did it get in that time? And what were the parts that wore out beyond economical repair/replacement?

It is an interesting question – without flogging it, how long does it take to wear out a mini-lathe?

Sorry to be pedantic, but machine life is measured in hours, actually hours-worked, rather than years, because so much depends on how often and hard the machine is driven, the material being cut, and maintenance.

Apart from the electrics and belt, a lovingly maintained Myford taken for the occasional Sunday spin will stay in 'as new' condition forever because the hours-worked are low and genteel. Exactly the same model would be quickly knackered by following this bad advice: use the machine to carbide cut as many short, small diameter cast-iron widgets per hour as the operator can manage, for weeks on end. This concentrates wear on the bed, requires high-speed, repeated rapid stop-starts (no clutch!), and a proportion of the cast-iron blanks will stress the lathe due to chilling. As the operator is in a hurry, he never cleans the lathe, allowing abrasive swarf to build up under the ways, on the worms, and inside the motor. He doesn't keep the oil topped up, and uses the Dewhurst switch to stop and start the lathe.

The most likely thing to wear out fatally on a mini-lathe is the bed near the chuck, but, as happened to all my old cars, it was a combination of faults that made them 'Beyond Economic Repair, condemning them to the scrapyard'. Same with machine tools: rather than continually patching the old girl up, sooner or later better and cheaper to replace a mini-lathes. Any combination of a worn bed, bearings, plastic gears, half-nut, lead-screw, belt, motor, and electronics could add up to a death sentence.

There are always exceptions! Many Model Engineers thoroughly enjoy refurbishing clapped out equipment and even my cold heart finds fixing stuff very satisfying. But, because my main interest is making things and I'm always short of time, I usually prefer to replace rather than repair. I would use the web abbreviation YMMV here, "Your Mileage May Vary', except I found out recently it can also mean 'You Make Me Vomit"…

Dave

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/05/2022 09:30:00:

Posted by Hopper on 08/05/2022 08:41:22:

Posted by Ian B. on 08/05/2022 07:48:39:

I am a fan of the "mini lathe" concept. I have had a Clarke machine and literally wore it out. Fully up specced to Dave Fenners books. The parts to reinstate were far too expensive and I bought another machine …

That's interesting. How many years did it take to wear it out? And how much use did it get in that time? And what were the parts that wore out beyond economical repair/replacement?

It is an interesting question – without flogging it, how long does it take to wear out a mini-lathe?

Sorry to be pedantic, but machine life is measured in hours, actually hours-worked, rather than years, because so much depends on how often and hard the machine is driven, the material being cut, and maintenance.

Apart from the electrics and belt, a lovingly maintained Myford taken for the occasional Sunday spin will stay in 'as new' condition forever because the hours-worked are low and genteel. Exactly the same model would be quickly knackered by following this bad advice: use the machine to carbide cut as many short, small diameter cast-iron widgets per hour as the operator can manage, for weeks on end. This concentrates wear on the bed, requires high-speed, repeated rapid stop-starts (no clutch!), and a proportion of the cast-iron blanks will stress the lathe due to chilling. As the operator is in a hurry, he never cleans the lathe, allowing abrasive swarf to build up under the ways, on the worms, and inside the motor. He doesn't keep the oil topped up, and uses the Dewhurst switch to stop and start the lathe.

The most likely thing to wear out fatally on a mini-lathe is the bed near the chuck, but, as happened to all my old cars, it was a combination of faults that made them 'Beyond Economic Repair, condemning them to the scrapyard. Same with machine tools: rather than continually patching the old girl up, sooner or later better and cheaper to replace a mini-lathe. Any combination of a worn bed, bearings, plastic gears, half-nut, lead-screw, belt, motor, and electronics could add up to a death sentence.

There are always exceptions! Many Model Engineers thoroughly enjoy refurbishing clapped out equipment and even my cold heart finds fixing stuff very satisfying. But, because my main interest is making things and I'm always short of time, I usually prefer to replace rather than repair. I would use the web abbreviation YMMV here, "Your Mileage May Vary', except I found out recently it can also mean 'You Make Me Vomit"…

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

24 years with 15 of them churning out production work is as good as you would expect from any lathe I reckon. Stellar for such a cheap machine.

Hardened bed is usually a bit of a misnomer. They might run an induction hardener along them but unless they use the high grade cast iron — which they usually don't — it makes very little difference in the Rockwell rating. And even the good cast iron does not get as hard as good steel. So it's all relative.

Yes very few of the generation before us could afford half the workshop exotica we can now buy very affordably from China.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Ian shows that with care and attention, a reasonable purse can be made from a sow's ear!

And how do you put a price on the satisfaction of having improved and fine tuned the machine?

Howard

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Just in case it has been missed, this link could be useful to owners of the small Chinese lathes:

**LINK**

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