advice on choosing a milling machine

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by giles lever on 19/08/2017 12:55:35:

Has anyone any thoughts on the Adcock & Shipley Model 1ES vs a Tom Senior M1 or Major

Not really. I believe both were from good makers.

I do have an opinion on horizontal milling machines though, which is 'no thanks'. I've only got space for one milling machine and, as vertical mills are more versatile, I went for one of them. But that's only me. As usual the choice really depends on what you intend doing with the machine and your circumstances. Perhaps someone who owns a horizontal mill could comment on their pros and cons?

Thanks,

Dave.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 20/08/2017 18:26:26

[giles leverParticipant @gileslever22853]

thanks for your advice. I agree vertical appears more handy, I think both manufacturers machines can be adapted between both vertical and horizontal??

[VicParticipant @vic]

I think Vertical machines are more handy but some old machines have both Horizontal and Vertical which gives you the best of both worlds. For some jobs the extra rigidity of a Horizontal mill can be very useful.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

No experience with Addcock and Shipley 1Es but did use a 2S in the early 80s or very late 70s. The machine was brand new and totally worn out after 18 months. Replaced by a Stanko eastern block machine that mechanically lasted but let down by troublesome electrics.

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

Another consideration is whether in vertical mode the mill has a quill – an usually lever-driven up-down action for the spindle, like on a drill. Very handy for drilling. Vertical heads without a quill are often more rigid and compact, but without one you need to crank the table up and down for drilling, which is do-able but less than handy, and can lack the 'feel' you get with a lever. Sometimes you can instead just mark the hole centres with a spotting or centre drill on the mill, then move to an actual drilling machine for the full holes. But that's not always possible/desirable.

Many of the vertical head attachments for horizontal mills do not have quills. Not necessarily a deal breaker if everything else is good, but something to factor into any decision…

[giles leverParticipant @gileslever22853]

Thanks, good point reference lack of drilling quill, this issue never crossed my mind.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

This is only an issue if you need to drill at an angle other than 90 or 180 to the table. Quills can be a pain.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Drilling holes at precise locations on a workpiece has been a regular use of my milling machine that I'd not be without. I even changed the single drilling lever on mine to a tri lever setup to make it more convenient.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I also use the drilling function of my Mill/Drill more than anything else, and so the speed and ease of the quill's drilling function is superb, I wouldn't ever be without. (As a former Astra horizontal and vertical mill owner I'm confident of this)

Just be careful with some horizontal mill's as the vertical attachments are extremely close to the surface of the table, you'll not have enough room left to get a drill chuck + drill in! – let alone a drill chuck + drill + workpiece/vice underneath!

It all comes down to what you want to do with it! It wouldn't take much time or expense to adapt an old pillar drill to mount on a horizontal/vertical mill – giving it another feather in it's cap, and providing relatively quick and easy coordinated drilling – just so long as you've got the distance from spindle to table!

Edited By Russ B on 21/08/2017 12:21:45

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Dave Halford on 21/08/2017 10:19:28:

This is only an issue if you need to drill at an angle other than 90 or 180 to the table. Quills can be a pain.

In what way are 'quills a pain'? From my experience not having a quill is more of a pain.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 20/08/2017 18:26:11:

Perhaps someone who owns a horizontal mill could comment on their pros and cons?

I have both vertical and horizontal mills. The vertical has a horizontal adaptor and the horizontal has a vertical adaptor. In both cases it is time consuming to swap from one mode to the other, not least because the vertical attachment for the horizontal mill weighs more than I can lift without requiring a visit to A&E.

If there is only room for one mill, then I'd lean towards vertical. A quill is essential, I do 99.99% of my drilling on the vertical mill. The quill is also useful for reaming and power tapping with self-reversing tapping heads. Personally I think that power feed on X, at least, is essential. If nothing else on the higher feedrates I couldn't move the handle fast enough manually.

My horizontal mill was a cheap impulse buy. Once it was cleaned up and settled in a final position it has proved to be rather useful. It knocks the vertical mill (Bridgeport) into a cocked hat in terms of rigidity and metal removal rates. Table X and Y travels are similar to a Warco WM16, but my mill weighs 3500lbs. Horizontal milling cutters are cheap on Ebay, provided you avoid the fantasists; I generally pay less than a fiver per cutter. A horizontal mill is good for cleaning up hot rolled steel:

And for cutting gears small,:

and large, in one pass:

With a swivelling table they can also be used for gashing and hobbing worm wheels as well as cutting helical gears:

Total cost of the setup above was less than £600.

I will be using the horizontal mill to do the majority of the heavy machining on the cylinder blocks and smokebox castings for my traction engines.

While horizontal mills are possibly in second place to vertical mills they are a useful addition to the workshop.

Andrew

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I use my vertical head for drilling. The only problem with no quill would be the table weight. One has to raise over 50kg manually as opposed to operating the light spring-loaded quill mechanism. If power fed, I would prefer raisng the knee than lowering the quill whenever a fairly large extension of the quill is required.

Setting the workpiece for angled drillings is prolly easier than having to re-tram the head afterwards. Swings and roundabouts – except for no power feed – for he majority of jobs, I think.

Threading holes is the most useful other duty for the quill, I reckon.

Edit: Andrew, impressive!  Yours weighs over 5 times (inclusive the stand) my Centec. My other, smaller vertical mill does not have a quill, but still gets used a fair amount.

Edited By not done it yet on 21/08/2017 16:36:58

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have downsized some of my workshop prior ot a house move,I had an Adcock and Shipley 2e Horizontal with vertical attachment and an Elliot Milmore turret mill with 50 inch table,both close to two tons, a neighbour gave me his Elliot Omnimill weight around 12cwt with and it came with a slotting attachment, both spindles are 3 m/taper.one big advantage of this machine is the vertical head on the the top mounted swivelling arm can be swung out of the way when using the horizontal spindle, so vertical to horizontal changes can be made quickly with no lifting of detachable heads,great when you are my age,the quill is substantial. unfortunately the whole vertical head is not capable of making reasonable cuts its just not rigid enough,overall the capacity,i.e. space under the spindle,travel of table,xyz is good for a smaller machine. I have vastly improved the rigitity of the head,by making a support out of 1 inch thick steel plate,the depth stop clamp is removed,the steel support has a hole in it to take the quill and split across the diameter of the bore to make a clamp. the plate bolts to the end of the round overarm which supports the horizontal arbour, so the head with the overarm can be slid along the y axis and clamped up, there is provision for an extra tie strap to connect clamp plate to overarm when the head is tilted. if the quill feed is required then the two bolts on the clamp are slackened .So I now have a very useful versatile uk built milling machine,I have since managed to buy at some cost the two way swivelling head ,which bolts to the vertical column and driven via the horizontal spindle. The only problem so far after a year of ownership is the bottom speed on both spindles is too high either for tough materials or large diameter saws, now scheming out ways to reduce the speeds cheaply by mechanical means not electronic.There is a photo of the clamp arrangement in my photo album.Regarding the small adcock and shipley 1ES a friend has one and uses it for restoration of a full size t/engines,the 1ES has substantial 40 int spindles and more room under the vertical spindle,only disadvantage is the vertical head is quite heavy,I had a tom senior many years ago,and did not keep it for long,Vertical spindle too light with 2MT spindle and very little space under the the spindle, a Harrison is far better,the Tom senior table and knee slides are rigid and operate freely, basically a good machine in horizontal mode ,but very poor in vertical mode, The expensive quill feed head,is nicely made but should have been made larger with an R8 or 3 mt spindle.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

A few posts here have debated the merits or otherwise of having a quill. Of course, the alternative to a quill on a (knee type) vertical milling machine is to go for the "bed mill" design, where the table never moved vertically but instead the whole head moves up and down the column. There are quite a few machines like this these days – most modern vertical machining centres are built that way and quite a few hobby machines like the Sieg SX2.7 etc, not forgetting the Tormach PCCNC machines.

The disadvantage of the knee / turret / quill machines is the very limited travel in the Z axis (only 5" for a Bridgeport for instance). So the difference in length between a short milling cutter in a stubby holder and a long drill in a drill chuck means you will often have to move the table between operations. Not a problem for many people but you can see why CNC machines have moved away from having a quill. It also screws up any DRO measurements you have going on.

I actually have DRO scales on both the knee and the quill of my Blidgeport but in practice I hardly use both. But on my Shizuoka CNC machine, I have to try to set things up so that the knee isn't moved between operations to avoid screwing up the tool table vaalues. It pretty much rules out the use of my Haimer probe which is much longer than most of my tools by the time it's actually mounted in a toolholder.

Murray

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

Can anyone tell me why the Amat25LV milling machine with R8 taper is £400 cheaper than the 3MT version? (both currently on eBay).

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Terry Kirkup on 11/04/2020 17:43:23:

Can anyone tell me why the Amat25LV milling machine with R8 taper is £400 cheaper than the 3MT version? (both currently on eBay).

One might be a package deal with extras.

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

Cheers Neil – I wish I could read. It is indeed a different package – didn't notice the DROs fitted!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Terry Kirkup on 11/04/2020 17:43:23:

Can anyone tell me why the Amat25LV milling machine with R8 taper is £400 cheaper than the 3MT version? (both currently on eBay).

Could be a bargain. Things are only worth what people are prepared to pay for them. If a vendor overstocks with machines that don't sell as well as expected the unwanted kit takes up expensive floor space and stops the vendor from bringing in whatever is selling well. In those circumstances it makes sense to get rid of slow moving stock as a special-offer.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 11/04/2020 18:07:27

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