Advance Notice – Leaving the Forum

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On John Doe 2 Said:

…

A guy has recently been talking about rewiring a Singer sewing machine, and stated that they had 50 years electronics experience, and were qualified for PAT testing. A reply appeared that in one sentence basically implied that all that experience and knowledge was worthless, and towards the end included the word ‘negligent’, which was clearly not the case.

…

Sigh, that was me! It’s in #750681

However, I fear John looks to take offence rather than understand the point.

Let me draw a parallel.   Does passing the driving test and having 50 years road experience mean that a motorist is a competent driver?   I say not.   The Driving Test has changed since 1970, the chap’s road experience may be entirely on quiet back-roads, and he might have 12 points on his licence, and gone blind!

Part of my job was recruiting technical staff with relevant experience.   As it’s common for applicants to sex up their experiences, it’s essential to verify their claims by asking searching questions. Alarm bells ring when candidates can’t provide any convincing examples.    Experience can also be honest but irrelevant, out-of-date, too specialised, too shallow, or wrong!  Either way, it’s negligent to take bare assertions of experience  at face-value.

John then takes my use of the word ‘negligent’ in #750681 out of context in a very misleading way.   I said:

‘Barrack Room Lawyers are harmless, it’s real lawyers you need to worry about! No joke being held accountable by a court if someone is injured by a negligent repair.‘    Is it not a fact that negligent repairs cause legal problems?  

Please don’t twist what I say.

Dave

 

 

 

 

Talking of irrelevant what is the point of your bold in the context of the reply to the Jdoe post? Unless your intension was to try to imply he would be liable for someone else’s repair just by saying it? Which he wouldn’t be.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Andrew,

I will be sorry to see you go and I have to agree the forum is changing, however that does not mean that your posts are no longer useful and relevant. Some buy old iron, but choose to avoid the pro Chinese lack of replies by not posting even though they still read what’s on here. Their posting is simply done on other forums.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Sorry to see you go Andrew,

Hope to see you at the steam museum in Norfolk again this year.

All the best

Derek

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The biggest shame is that, if we folks were face to face at a show or down the pub, they wouldn’t fall out; at worst they would agree to disagree…

Have a break Andrew, and hopefully return refreshed in your own time. Thanks for your contributions.

Neil

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

I too shall be sorry if the experience/resources you bring to the forum are lost Andrew.  For example I remember a detailed study of surface finish in lathe turning you shared many years ago.  Because you were able to give objective (Ra) measurements that was very useful for me, even though I had only a benchtop lathe and your measurements were made on a much heavier machine.

Robin.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I too would be sorry to see you leave; even more so if all your previous posts, and and the valuable information contained within them, were to be deleted.

Bill

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

I’ve been wound up by a JasonB reply before but after a cup of tea and re-reading the post I realise I had no cause for upset.

I’ve felt SoD can act a bit superior towards me on one occasion but the effort he puts into this forum by the length and detail of his replies more than makes up for allowing occasional opportunities for me to take upset.

If you are getting upset then that is something you can control by just having a cup of tea, chilling out, disagreeing, and carrying on. I would appreciate a forum where people can disagree, be right and wrong, but continue a discussion to help inform on the issue. Or just don’t engage further on the single discussion – you can then still enjoy the rest of the forum.

I’d be sorry to see anyone go. Everyone, including the trolls, add character and value in my book – just so long as I can control my own reaction.

 

Please stay.

 

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On John Doe 2 Said:

…

A guy has recently been talking about rewiring a Singer sewing machine

…

Sigh, that was me! It’s in #750681

…
John then takes my use of the word ‘negligent’ in #750681 out of context in a very misleading way.   I said:

‘Barrack Room Lawyers are harmless, it’s real lawyers you need to worry about! No joke being held accountable by a court if someone is injured by a negligent repair.‘    Is it not a fact that negligent repairs cause legal problems?  

Please don’t twist what I say.

Dave

 

 

 

 

Talking of irrelevant what is the point of your bold in the context of the reply to the Jdoe post? Unless your intension was to try to imply he would be liable for someone else’s repair just by saying it? Which he wouldn’t be.

Sorry Dave, that interpretation is several steps too far for me!  John isn’t liable for anything.   The context of the emboldening is John’s misunderstanding of a post I made in another topic. In this topic, sorry Andrew,  John incorrectly chose to assume the word negligent applied to someone else.  Not what I said at all, and doubly not the case that the sentence applies to John!   Actually, the point  is nothing to do with individuals, it’s a general principle.

Seems simple enough to me.  When someone else is hurt by a botched repair, it’s the actual legal system that decides whether or not the Botcher was negligent, responsible, and accountable.  Trust me, the process is unpleasant, even if system decides ‘not guilty’.

Dave

 

 

 

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Hi Andrew,

I have sent you a PM.

Thanks,

Neil Lickfold

[jaCK Hobson]

On jaCK Hobson Said:

…

I’ve felt SoD can act a bit superior towards me on one occasion but the effort he puts into this forum by the length and detail of his replies more than makes up for allowing occasional opportunities for me to take upset.

…
 

Please stay.

 

Apologies for appearing superior, not my intention at all!   My mission is to explain and clarify, not to bang my own drum.  Like everyone else on the forum, I have a certain skill-set, and am happy to share what might be useful.

I don’t claim to be right, and there are many, many examples on the forum of others correcting my errors, with me acknowledging the mistakes.  Though criticism is bad for my ego, I’d rather the forum benefited from the corrections than let my errors persist!

I shall be very sorry to lose Andrew, partly because he often reports my blunders, but also because I’ve learned so much from him.  It’s a good thing that his skill-set and workshop are different to mine.    Perhaps we should force him to stay by honouring him as a “Forum Member Extraordinaire For Life”.

Dave

 

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On John Doe 2 Said:

…

A guy has recently been talking about rewiring a Singer sewing machine, and stated that they had 50 years electronics experience, and were qualified for PAT testing. A reply appeared that in one sentence basically implied that all that experience and knowledge was worthless, and towards the end included the word ‘negligent’, which was clearly not the case.

…

Sigh, that was me! It’s in #750681

However, I fear John looks to take offence rather than understand the point……..Please don’t twist what I say.

Dave

I don’t look to take offence, and I do understand the point you made. Perhaps I am wrong, but your post to the sewing machine guy came across (to me) like a policeman or a head teacher talking to a slightly naughty school boy, rather than a kindly uncle passing on their experience and wisdom. It seemed to basically dismiss and trash 50 years of that person’s electronic experience and PAT testing qualification, which just seemed rude to me.

For what it’s worth; I have fitted and used mains powered items and equipment that explicitly state “this appliance must not be earthed”, so metal components in mains powered items do not always require earthing, as long as certain other protections are in place*.

Negligence – for example those companies supplying insulation cladding that was known by them to be highly flammable, for Grenfell Tower – is obviously a very very bad thing, but I don’t think that the word had any relevance in connection to this particular guy’s post or intentions.

 

As I say; let’s be nice and helpful to each other. If anybody wants ‘nasty’, they can go to other well known forms of social media !

 

*as Robert A explains.

 

[jaCK Hobson]

On jaCK Hobson Said:

 

 

Please stay.

 

No need to worry. This has happened several times before and he’s still here. 😉

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

Why am I not surprised?

[Anonymous]

Two questions for moderator(s) please:

1) On the old forum there used to be an ignore member function, is there one on the new forum, and if so where on earth is it!

2) If an account is deleted are all existing posts deleted, or simply marked as ‘Former member’ like the old forum?

Andrew

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

1. No ignore member option now.

2. It has only been done once on the new system by admin and if I remember rightly all posts remained. let me look back to confirm that.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

2. looks like it may have been done more than once as this is not the person I was thinking of but they now show as Annon but their posts remain though there is no way to look back through their posts so I can’t confirm if images have remained. See this thread.

The option to ask for deletion is now in FAQs/help, fill in the form and select remove account from the dropdown. If you would like your past contributions to remain it would be worth saying in the message box to make sure they don’t get deleted.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

1. No ignore member option now.

2. It has only been done once on the new system by admin and if I remember rightly all posts remained. let me look back to confirm that.

The ignore option is in place and all going well, only problem is that admin are the only ones that have access to it.

For admin it means requests, suggestions and bug reports from us mere ‘participants’ can vanish into thin air!

Ian P (Rant over for today)

 

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My perception of the Forum is that one of the reasons for it is to ,provide interest and information to other users from the various contributions.

I am sorry that Andrew feels the need to leave, because of comments from some other posters.

My advice would be what was written around the rim of an ash tray that i saw as an apperentice.  “Illigitemos non carborundum”. On the underside it was translated as

“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”

On every forum that I have visited, there will always be a collection of people who seem to have a negative attitude and enjoy criticising and denigrating some other contributor., rather than supporting or helping.

Thankfully, there seem to be fewer on here than on other sites; but we can do without them.

This is where the “Ignore Member” option would useful.

Forum members own and operate a wide variety of machines, and have a wide variety of skills and confidence, which provides for a huge range of interest and information.

Obviously the same cuts and feed cannot be used on a watchmakers lathe as would be on say a 21″ Dean Smith and Grace, but there is room on here for all sorts. Some mini lathe operators will work their machine much harder than others who are less courageous., as will Myford 7 Series users.

Talkling of “industrial machines”, the Myford 7 will fall into that category, since I have seen then used in the toolrooms of quite large industrial concerns.  Who criticises them for that?

Less carping, and more tolerance please

Howard

[John Doe 2]

On John Doe 2 Said:

The forum does seem to have had some unnecessary attitudes and posts recently – some are actually nasty.

A guy has recently been talking about rewiring a Singer sewing machine, and stated that they had 50 years electronics experience, and were qualified for PAT testing. A reply appeared that in one sentence basically implied that all that experience and knowledge was worthless, and towards the end included the word ‘negligent’, which was clearly not the case.

I have suffered some – instead of answering my beginner’s questions, I am asked “who gives a toss” or told “I am effectively telling people to sod off”.

And “I am not going to tell you how to do it, you will have to work it out for yourself”.

Charming ! Absolutely charming.

(And all my engineering experience was apparently worthless too).

 

What is a person to make of replies like these, and how are they going to feel about the world of model engineering and model engineering workshops ? And why are membership and magazine sales falling away ? Hmmmmmmmmm.

Personally; I ask questions on this forum to benefit from the experience and knowledge of people like the OP Andrew, and those former industry engineers who have ‘been there, done that’, and who actually know how to do things.

Let’s be nice and encouraging to each other. If we can’t do that, let’s save electrons by not posting.

I also feel a right to reply, YOU wanted others on here to tell you how to do what in our opinion was a botch job and we told you you should either do it properly or get a professioinal in to do it for you, But! NO! your way was the only way – which is why I said you were implying we should ‘go away or ‘Sod off’ because we were not telling you what you wanted to here.

Yes! I could have told you how to do it, but after your comments I felt less inclined to do so as if anything had gone wrong you would have blamed me!

There are some people you can help and those who you can’t.

Take that any way you like.

Had you done the job properly like we advised it would have all been done by now.

If your attitude to making things is the same, then I fear there is no hope for you (my opinion of course!

Our advice was given with the best intentions but was disregarded with contempt, how do you expect us to react?

If you only want answers that fit your narative, why ask the question?

finaly, why do people have to tell the forum they are leaving? just go!

[Howi]

On Howi Said:

On John Doe 2 Said:

The forum does seem to have had some unnecessary attitudes and posts recently – some are actually nasty.

 

finaly, why do people have to tell the forum they are leaving? just go!

@John Doe, quite agree. Furthermore the lack of ability to ignore people makes it more difficult to use the forum. I will follow Andrew.

[bernard towers]

On bernard towers Said:

Why is some people on here have to be always right

Ideally everybody on an engineering forum would always be right, and we should all strive to be so. It is of course a dreadful sin to believe oneself right despite the facts!

A fact based hobby shouldn’t be controversial.  I suggest an engineering forum must correct factual errors.   And members should suggest improvements and alternatives.

Unfortunately people are complicated.  A few examples:

• Occasionally posters expect the rest of us to validate their bad decisions.
• Or a poster fixates on a technique that’s unlikely to deliver, and then takes offence when alternatives are offered.
• Some folk always take criticism personally, even though the issue is a flawed technical suggestion.
• Introducing political opinion into technical subjects.
• Trolling – deliberately starting arguments for fun as a power trip.

In  these examples, posters want the forum topic to be about them!  Expect to be challenged – I for one am not prepared to pander to technically incorrect ego trippers!

Moving on, misunderstandings are common.   Often started by poorly worded questions where leaving out important details wastes the responders time and raises suspicion that the OP is trolling.  But even well-worded questions can cause trouble.   We’re all liable to get the wrong-end of the stick, express ourselves badly, fail to read carefully,  jump to conclusions,  have hobby-horses, be out-of-date, or  misled in our youth. Our replies, which seem politely crystal clear to us, turns out to be ambiguous or accidentally offensive,  condescending, arrogant, or patronising.  Misunderstandings are a rich source of trouble because corrections are themselves likely to be misunderstood, starting a cascade of offence taking!   I mostly ignore minor misunderstandings, but it’s a judgement call.  Sadly, some members choose not to accept corrections, and carry on repeating the same error regardless.   We live in an imperfect world!

Members!  Are you a politician or an engineer?  A politician is always right, and someone else is blamed when his plans don’t deliver.  Facts are secondary. As a soldier the Duke of Wellington despised politicians, but later became Prime Minister, where his philosophy was “Never Explain, Never Apologise“.   An engineer works from facts, operates a system of continuous improvement, and recognises that he cannot be always right.  Henry Ford went for: “Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently.”

I’d rather be an engineer.

Dave

 

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

It’s sad to see people feeling they have to leave the forum through what seems to be a sort of disease that is more and more prevalent in all walks of life now. That is a lack of politeness and respect for others.  Come on chaps, you know who you are!

Russell

[southernchapParticipant @southernchap]

I have a single digit number of posts on this place but I have a lot of experience of internet communities, going right back to Usenet.

One of the things I’ve learnt over the years is that on forums and the like, if one wants one’s membership of any forum that is fundamentally good hearted to go well, one should be more ready to apologise for creating a misunderstanding and/or accidentally offending someone, and more graceful in accepting an apology than one would be in face to face communications. Courtesy is a vital lubricant to a forum’s machinery*.

In engineering hobby forums, where there are often well known best tecnical practices, there also has to be a willingness to explain those best practices to beginners, explain the underlying reasons for those best practices (and if one doesn’t understand the underlying technical reasons, including at least a basic grasp of the physics involved, one is not talking engineering, one is talking superstition) and state the consequences of failing to follow those best practices.

If the recipient of the advice chooses not to follow that advice (providing safety isn’t an issue, of course), one then has to shrug one’s shoulders and say to oneself (and only oneself) “Eh, your part. If you scrap it after an hour’s work, then it’s your time wasted” and walk away from the thread.

As for technical advice given by those who have never used less rigid, less capable benchtop machines and the appropriateness/usefulness of that advice. Well that comes down to person giving the advice.

Some will provide the fish they know and some will teach how to fish with any rod.

If someone answers a question without showing the OP the respect of understanding their original question (and often the best answers come after a few back and forth questions) and that answer is inappropriate for the machine tool the OP has then, no matter how much personal experience the answerer has in their life of machining/model making, their answer is a poor one and deserves correction.

That correction should be given kindly and most importantly taken gracefully by the answerer; they should hold humbly hold their hands up and say to themselves “I learnt something new today; that’s a good thing”

Anything else suggests that person believes they have all the knowledge worth learning.

Humility and an awareness of the incompleteness of our knowledge should be at the heart of all science and engineering.

Finally, one other thing I’ve learned is that “I’m leaving” posts are best ignored, or at least gently and kindly mocked, in the way that one would humorously pull the leg of an overly-dramatic but well loved brother or sister.

 

 

 

 

*And yes, I know, I know. There’s a time when someone posts something so egregiously and arrantly wrong, it’s almost offensive and one has so little respect for the idiocy of the opinion, one wants to tear the post apart, until there’s nothing left but the shreds of the foolishness, blowing away in the wind of one’s righteous rage.

If one is lucky, it might provide a hollow satisfaction for a short time but never peace. If one is unlucky, one’s understanding of the post in question is at fault, and one looks like an utter idiot.

[Howi]

On Howi Said:

Finally, why do people have to tell the forum they are leaving? just go!

I don’t know either but it was done before, several times.

Others have just wanted to have a final say before leaving. If I felt the need to leave I might give an explanation but probably not.

[MM57Participant @mm57]

Andrew…

I very rarely post here, but do browse a few times a week. I enjoy your posts, especially as we first met very close to 50 years ago at SETC, RAE Farnborough, and I am always more than impressed with what you have done and continue to do.

I would suggest a break from the forum rather than departing, but if you do go, good luck in all your future endeavours.

Martin M

[Author]

Posts