A request

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

sdnuos lkie bhslluit to me

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

On old English linguistics professor once told me "You should never correct the way someone speaks, unless you are married to them — and want a divorce!"

Forums, although in written format, are more like speech than a formal written document. It is basically a "chat room" as they used to be called, with people chatting back and forth asking and answering questions and making comments as they go, all off the cuff.

So I reckon the good professor's words apply.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

The problem is that if the language, written or spoken, is (almost) unintelligible to the reader or listener, then the reader or listener is simply going to switch off and ignore the writer or speaker. Which may well be a disadvantage to either person, or even to both people. Furthermore, it can lead to negative feelings in either direction.

Posts such as that above by Ady1 do not, in my opinion, add anything, rather they, by making fun of the problem, they trivialise what is a serious problem to some people.

I fully agree with Bodger Brian about the unintelligibility of posts written as he describes. Unfortunately, this isn't a problem just on this forum as it happens elsewhere as well. And I don't think misplaced or missing commas is the reason either: it is a specific lack of understanding of even the most basic rules of grammar, something which has been getting worse since certain people decided that ideas communication was more important than knowing the basic rules of grammar with which to communicate those ideas. It seems to me that the quote by Hopper immediately above is an example of this, in my view, misplaced thinking – and I don't care just how much his professor knows – intelligibility has to be important.

I am well aware that some people appear to use a different form of English to me – I'm thinking of those people who use words such as "yous", or as a 13 year old boy said to me when describing toothache: "It's painin' us!". But at least it was readily decipherable and hence easily understandable. But there does appear to be a group of people to whom the basics of grammar, and sentence construction is an alien concept.

I have no experience of tablets, smart-phones, or other electronic devices other than my computer, yet I cannot see that it is not possible to correct something after insertion into the forum: there is, after all, an edit function available within the forum. Therefore, I don't necessarily agree that the problem is predictive software – unless the problem is actually that the writer cannot see the layout after insertion.

What the answer is, I really do not know, other than a return to old-fashioned methods of teaching grammar, but that won't go down too well.

I'll leave you with a saying I've heard a few times: "If you know how to spell, then you are over the age of 50 (and hence subjected to the old-fashioned way of being taught English)". And yes, I know I've introduced a new factor, but it's all part of the same problem.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

(who, by the way, failed English Language, English Literature and French at GCE 'O' level, and dropped Latin after two years).

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Not wanting to stretch this thread any further than necessary, but it may be appropriate to ask all who post (posters advertise things/events, in my book) to put themselves in the place of those who are about to read the contribution.

YOU know what you are talking about, but will your meaning be clear to the READER?

(This is a certain way of antagonising old hands, who know; by making it plain to the newcomer, or those unfamiliar with the subject. That means me on computers or electronics)

EXAMPLE: To some, a PET is an old make of computer, whilst to many more it will be their cat or dog.

Howard

[VicParticipant @vic]

I thought it was Polyethylene terephthalate?

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

nah, mate its a sort of plastic me misses tells me to put in the green bin.

(Polyethylene terephthalate)

Frank

[Rufus RoughcutParticipant @rufusroughcut]

Sorry boys am from yorkshu an av no idea wat yu goin on about, the ony pet r no is me geordy mates missus

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Peter,

"It's painin' us!".

The lad was probably speaking in his local dialect. In the North East people often use "us" instead of "me, however he did at least make himself clear to you. I do not think there is anything wrong with local dialect being used in everyday speech but standard English should be used when writing.

I do not like to the modern persistent use of "like" by youngsters throughout their conversations.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Since local accents and/or dialect can change within 25 miles (yes they do) we all have to learn to understand our neighbours, but the written word should be correct! I knowlingly say "should", because I know saying "shall" will only cause confusion. Just read public statements and print from central government to see they too have the same problem.

Edited By KWIL on 17/12/2015 20:04:11

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Lambton,

Sorry, this wasn't local dialect : it was nothing more than poor speech because he didn't know any better. From what I could see of him, he had probably never been exposed for any length of time to any adults speaking even a modicum of good English. He was always understandable, albeit with poor grammar and incorrect usage of words, but what was more troubling was his lack of understanding of the world around him, and his total lack of interest in anything other than watching football on the television.

As a West Riding man, I was exposed to a lot of Yorkshire dialect (and got told off for using it), and when I moved to West Cumbria where I took up part-time taxi driving for a few years, I was exposed to a lot more of what at times seemed like a different language. In general though, most people used a recognisable form of speech and it was really only the local pronunciations which tripped me up, for example, this village, Torpenhow, is pronounced "Trepenna". This was probably the worst example I came across.

I was born & bred in the Halifax/Huddersfield area, and worked in both Bradford (Bratfud?) and Leeds, and yes, there are different dialects, and word meanings. For example, I used to have arguments with some of my Leeds – born colleagues over what I knew as a teacake: they called it a breadcake!

Out of interest, I have looked up both "shall" and "should" in my ancient Oxford MiniDictionary, and quite frankly, I can't see much, if any, difference between them.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by KWIL on 17/12/2015 20:03:35:

I knowlingly say "should", because I know saying "shall" will only cause confusion.

.

"Curiouser and Curiouser" [said Alice]

In contractual documents, 'shall' is legally accepted as meaning that some specified behaviour is mandatory [i.e. its interpretation is like the Biblical "thou shalt"] … it is one of the most explicit and unambiguous words in the contractual vocabulary.

I suppose this goes to demonstrate the importance of context.

MichaelG.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 17/12/2015 22:01:41:

As a West Riding man, I was exposed to a lot of Yorkshire dialect (and got told off for using it),

There lies the root of your problem perhaps?

There is no "correct" way to speak. Language is a living, constantly evolving thing, evolving differently in different groups of users around the world, or as pointed out above from one villlage to another just 25 miles away. Nothing wrong with that. It's natural.

The rules for formal writing are stanardized of course. But forums are more of a conversation than formal writing. Like a conversation at the pub, you have to take what you get.

[Bodgit Fixit and RunParticipant @bodgitfixitandrun]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 17/12/2015 00:42:16:

Posted by Vic on 17/12/2015 00:26:48:

You can add words to both Mac OS and IOS dictionaries.

.

In the original 'spirit' of this thread, I should mention that he evidently cannot.

… You can, and I can, but Clive can not.

MichaelG.

Did you realise that this does mean that it is not possible to do, rather an option chosen from an active choice? "Can not", can't or cannot" are all choices. You can not do something or you can choose to do something. However, choosing not to do something is actually a choice to do something, in much the same way that choosing to do nothing is a choice to do something which is nothing, get it? which by the way can be a question meaning did you understand? or "get it" as in get it now. it's freedom of speech or even type.Thats wot I fink anyow. 

Edited By Bodgit Fixit and Run on 18/12/2015 09:11:00

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Peter Shaw Coming from that area did you never hear Slaithwaite pronounced as Slowit or Barnoldswick pronounced as Barlic ? When I was young in Lancashire you could get difference in dialects on opposite sides of the road

Roy

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bodgit Fixit and Run on 18/12/2015 09:09:54:

Did you realise that this does mean that it is not possible to do, rather an option chosen from an active choice? "Can not", can't or cannot" are all choices. You can not do something or you can choose to do something.

.

My comment to Vic was actually referencing the use of 'can' in the sense of 'able to'

i.e. Clive clearly does not currently have the requisite knowledge, and therefore cannot add words to his Apple dictionary. … and therefore, when Vic wrote 'You can' it was not strictly true.

Note: I meant no offence to Vic, or to Clive … it was merely a facetious remark upon the original post.

MichaelG.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Roy,

Not Barlic for Barnoldswick – because this was, so to speak, out of my immediate area (seeing as 'ow it were t'other side o't t'hill from 'alifax), but Slowit, yes, although Slathwaite, ie with the "i" missing, was most often used.

But just for the fun of it, who, what, or where is Shat? I'll leave you to ponder over that one. (Just a word to the moderators – it is genuine, I'm not being rude!)

Hopper,

There is a difference between dialect, and sloppy speech. As far as I am concerned, using "us", which is a plural word, instead of "me", the singular word, is sloppy speech. On the other hand, "laik" as in laikin' about is dialect for "playing about". The former is indicative, in my view, of poor education, whilst the latter is local language, somewhat akin, I suppose, to the difference between English and Gaelic. I have no objection to dialect – as long as I can understand it, but I do dislike sloppy speech. Language may be a "living" thing, but the rules of grammar are there for a particular purpose – to aid intelligibility, and when I hear the way some people speak, I despair, I really do.

The trouble with forums is that they are the written word, and as such are missing those visual clues that go with speech. It therefore behoves us when writing on forums to be particularly careful how we write so that we can get our message across without causing all those problems that can ensue, everything from giving the wrong idea to causing offence. Which brings us straight back to Bodger Brian's original point: that of the unintelligibilty of some of the posts.

Tootle-Pip,

Peter G. Shaw

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

On the two qccasions that I have visited UK, I was surprised by the changes in dialects I came across as I move north from Eastbourne, through England, and on to Paisley in Scotland. I think the least understandable were some children in Paisley, although we did manage to communicate once everyone slowed down a bit, they did find my Kiwi accent was a bit strange(I have not got an accent)!

I remember Dad saying how he missed a number of busses when going to Milngavie, until someone asked him where he was going, he said it sounded something like Mulguy. Dad just another colonial with the RNZAF.

There are differences in the language between all countries including Australia, and NZ.

My Grandfather used to complain about the quality of the English language, saying the from before the turn of the century(19th 20th) things had been going down hill. I imagine his Grandfather said something similar.

Ian S C

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 18/12/2015 10:18:31:

There is a difference between dialect, and sloppy speech. As far as I am concerned, using "us", which is a plural word, instead of "me", the singular word, is sloppy speech. On the other hand, "laik" as in laikin' about is dialect for "playing about". The former is indicative, in my view, of poor education, whilst the latter is local language, somewhat akin, I suppose, to the difference between English and Gaelic. I have no objection to dialect – as long as I can understand it …

.

Peter,

Do you remember 'Boys from the Black Stuff' ?

**LINK**

MichaelG.

[Steven VineParticipant @stevenvine79904]

i expect written word and its rules will be subject to much change in the coming decades – ive noticed lately that quite a few tv programs flash up a box of txt on the screen as the actors are texting on their mobiles – which is teaching millions of people the NEW way of writing – personally I have dropped using apostrophes as I have come to learn that you do not need them as the context of the text implies the meaning – steve

[densleighParticipant @densleigh]

Ian,

Understanding some Kiwi dialect is equally hard fro us back home. First visit I was re-rranging car hire collection time and the young lady kept saying 'I will meet you at teen' and possibly because of travel lag I was then trying to get her to tell me where that was! I am sure seeing it in print the answer is obvious ' meet me at ten' But they had a good laugh at me when it was finally decrypted by my Kiwi friends !!

Dialect is very interesting mid morning break in North Staffordshire is freed to as 'snapping' in South Cheshire it is called 'Bagging' and so on.

Anyway you have wonderful country and people now been 3 times and ready to go again. before that I need to go for a lozack

Regards John

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Michael,

Do you remember 'Boys from the Black Stuff' ?

In a word, no! I do remember some of my colleagues talking about it, but I took no interest in it. And from the clip you posed, which appears to show a rather uncouth character, I don't want to know. It may well be that I haven't understood it, but frankly, I don't think I want to.

In general, I think, that as far as I am concerned, this discussion has now come to an end. I'm not going to change my views about the poor English education which has been, and still is being, foisted on people younger than myself, and I'm not prepared to accept that so-called text-speak and other methods of short-form writing are valid methods of communication – they are, in my view, nothing more than laziness. As I said earlier, I have no problems with genuine dialect – as long as I can understand it, but sloppy, uncouth, ungrammatical English is both a no-no and a turn-off.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 18/12/2015 13:29:54:

Michael,

Do you remember 'Boys from the Black Stuff' ?

In a word, no! I do remember some of my colleagues talking about it, but I took no interest in it. And from the clip you posed, which appears to show a rather uncouth character, I don't want to know. It may well be that I haven't understood it, but frankly, I don't think I want to.

.

My point was, Peter, that this was an honest representation of dialect

In the early 1970s, I worked in Liverpool and I can confirm that gi'us a job is representative.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. … For comparison, you may [or, apparently, may not] be interested to know that in the Midlands 'Black Country' dialect the use of we'm [i.e we am] is the dialect version of 'we are'.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2015 14:12:01

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

As a rather uncouth character I'd better stop posting.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

This thread is shameful. Whilst we might percieve a less comprehensive grasp of the written word as ‘lazyness’, we might also consider that a great many people won’t have any problem deciphering such communications. We might also wish to consider that we are not really on a crusade to raise the lingual bar but merely to smugly profess just how far above it we are flying. I don’t particularly like text speak but i accept that when typing on a keyboard it may feel like the natural mode for some. I may not understand why some cannot spell or punctuate, but I accept that it is the case. I fully realise that this will likely rile some people, and I also accept that there will be the possibility of sanctions against my use of the forum, but this thread isn’t really a request for clarification of something; It’s a political statement to let the inferior oiks know they’re not welcome/worthy. It says ‘Meet my required standards or go away'(because lets be honest no one is going to miraculously become educationally illuminated due to a internet forum request), and it’s downright snobbery.

Edited By Steven Greenhough on 18/12/2015 17:29:42

Edited By Steven Greenhough on 18/12/2015 17:30:08

[Bodgit Fixit and RunParticipant @bodgitfixitandrun]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2015 10:00:11:

Posted by Bodgit Fixit and Run on 18/12/2015 09:09:54:

Did you realise that this does mean that it is not possible to do, rather an option chosen from an active choice? "Can not", can't or cannot" are all choices. You can not do something or you can choose to do something.

.

My comment to Vic was actually referencing the use of 'can' in the sense of 'able to'

i.e. Clive clearly does not currently have the requisite knowledge, and therefore cannot add words to his Apple dictionary. … and therefore, when Vic wrote 'You can' it was not strictly true.

Note: I meant no offence to Vic, or to Clive … it was merely a facetious remark upon the original post.

MichaelG.

Actshully I too was just extracting a bit of urin. Da inglish is majic innit?

[Author]

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