A Question on Bench Blocks

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Jason, I was thinking something dimensioned as 1/4" gets converted to 6mm, or 1 1/16 well that's 26mm as a nice round figure.

A new question. Why round? There is nothing that needs to be turned except perhaps the layout of the holes and square would be better to hold in a vice, even better for production. The plastic ones obviously had a rethink.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

I suppose round would work nicely if a socket was provided in the workbench, and it can be held in a vice at any angle. Perhaps the Starrett 119 has the cleverest approach with a round top and hexagonal base, as it can be held six ways in a vice and the overhanging top will rest on the vice jaws?

Not so sure about 198 USD though! I wonder if Ketan could source a (much) cheaper alternative?

Brian G

[Marischal EllisParticipant @marischalellis28661]

Precision…..my Hillman Imp in the Sixties was accurate to about an inch (thickness of a ten packet of cigarettes. Garage couldn't understand my course of 'conversation ' and I was referring to building site accuracy at the time. …..Shuttering joiners.

Merry Christmas to all ,and all who are so free with their help and assistance.

Marischal

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

If the back (non-V) side was as flat and hard as the front, it would be easy to flip the block if the smaller holes were needed without the groove getting in the way. Just in case you are thinking of going round again, Ketan.

And a jolly yule with plenty of wassail – Tim

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

The discussion on this thread has been very educational. Some great ideas, explanation and links, for which I am very grateful.

I was, and still am uncertain if ARC will re-introduce this product. If we do, I will take on board what has been said when deciding what to do.

Thank you once again, and Merry Christmas to you all.

Ketan at ARC.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 25/12/2019 12:39:54:

If the back (non-V) side was as flat and hard as the front, it would be easy to flip the block if the smaller holes were needed without the groove getting in the way. Just in case you are thinking of going round again, Ketan.

And a jolly yule with plenty of wassail – Tim

My Starrett 129 is hollow like this one. **LINK**

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Well Starrett still list them under precision metrology tools. The only thing that I can see as precise is the top and bottom faces are ground, presumably flat and parallel. For non-precision, non-marking work I use a ice hockey puck. Thesse can be cut and drilled to accomodate odd shaped work pieces. They are made from filled hard rubber which is "dead", high friction and won't damage cutting edges. Pretty cheap if you are in North America and not bad prices from the usual online retaillers. Make good pads for trolly jacks too.

Robert G8RPi.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 25/12/2019 12:39:54:

If the back (non-V) side was as flat and hard as the front, it would be easy to flip the block if the smaller holes were needed without the groove getting in the way. …

A solid bottom would be less likely to ding a wooden workbench as well

Brian G

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Vic on 25/12/2019 14:09:37:

My Starrett 129 is hollow like this one. **LINK**

Is it a casting? Alternatively is the hollow base useful to the user (there doesn't seem to be any precision to it but that might not exclude this)?

The answer to one of those ought to be 'yes' otherwise I don't see the advantage and it increases the manufacturing cost.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 25/12/2019 15:23:02:

Posted by Vic on 25/12/2019 14:09:37:

My Starrett 129 is hollow like this one. **LINK**

Is it a casting? Alternatively is the hollow base useful to the user (there doesn't seem to be any precision to it but that might not exclude this)?

The answer to one of those ought to be 'yes' otherwise I don't see the advantage and it increases the manufacturing cost.

Yes, it does look like a casting judging by the rough surface inside.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

According to Starrett, it is made from Steel

**LINK**

https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/129#Features

… so perhaps it is a forging.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: … Just found this, which is worth a look:

https://rick.sparber.org/beb.pdf

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/12/2019 19:49:40

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

I'm guessing the answer to the OP's question is "poorly made".

I've had a Starrett bench block on my bench(es) for longer than I can remember, a useful thing to have. if you don't then its a couple of productive hours to make one.

Not sure what makes the block precision, other than the parallelism of the top and bottom surfaces, thats been useful on the mill a good few times.

As for using it as a drill and tapping guide, the Sparber article, surely using it inverted would be better?

John

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

A quick search on Ebay shows them to be on sale for £16.85 inc post.

Brian

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John MC on 26/12/2019 08:10:47:

I'm guessing the answer to the OP's question is "poorly made".

.

The drawing is obviously done by hand, and there are no dimensions on the copy provided by Ketan; so we can only guess the angles, but it seems quite clear that the holes at [roughly] 9 o’clock and 12 o’clock are intentionally offset.

… and, although less clear, also the one at [roughly] 6 o’clock.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/12/2019 08:56:52

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, the one I have was given to me by a work mate at my last day job, it was given to him by an old boy who made clocks, along with some other tools, he had no use for this block.

The two holes in th V are in the centre of the crux, the V being 95 degrees inclusive with the side on the left being approx. 8mm deep and the side on the right being 7mm deep. The V is approx. 2mm offset to the right of the block by approx. 2mm and is approx 4mm deep and the large hole, for arguments sake, is in the centre of the block. I've found no manufacterers name on it but believe it to be a commrcially made item and there is a small number 5 stamped into the top face on the left hand side.

As can be seen in the above photo, the block is hollow.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 26/12/2019 09:53:29

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for sharing the photos, Nick

That looks entirely adequate for the general use that most of us would find for it.

The Starrett one, however, does appear to be in a different league; being hardened and ground.

MichaelG.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

They make good door stops too

Roy

ps. Compliments of the season to all even if a little late

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 26/12/2019 09:45:54:

…

As can be seen in the above photo, the block is hollow.

Regards Nick.

…

The patent explains why the block is hollow – it's to trap knocked out pins. Good idea – I've spent many unhappy hours looking for small parts escaped on to my garage floor.

I don't use my block often. Nuts and bolts, clips, rivets and spot-welds are my main challenges. Apart from model engines, I suppose pins and dowels are more common in firearms and jewellery than the stuff I play with.

Ironic to find UK purchasers paying good money for offset hole blocks designed to facilitate dismantling Colt 1911 Automatic Pistols! Not many of them round here…

Dave

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

In Volume 100 of ME, on page 44-45, Duplex discusses the use of the Starrett Bench Block No. 129 as a useful tool for drilling cross-holes central in round bar. He shows a couple of sketches as to how to go about doing this.

To quote his text,

"The Starrett bench block No 129, illustrated in Fig 11, which is accurately machined and surface ground after hardening, could, without difficulty, be adapted to make a drilling jig of this pattern. The central hole is bored 5/8 in. in diameter and lies on the axis of the V-groove machined on the upper surface of the block. Moreover the recess in the underside of the base would provide ample space for housing the nut and washer fitted to the central clamp bolt".

Further, this was one of my last items to be made in the apprentice training school at Dowty Rotol Ltd. This was without doubt a copy of the Starrett item, as Starrett ones were in use in the Toolroom. I well remember the difficulty setting up to grind the Vee. Not only was it to be central with the central hole but also the other two holes in the Vee. If that was not hard enough the Vee had to be a certain depth as well, checked with a roller, slips and a clock.

The operation taking best part of a morning to achieve for an apprentice, but this put us in good stead for when we reached the shop floor.

While the larger holes on the flat surface could be used with a simple attachment to make shim washers, as on our blocks these holes are on a common radius. The two holes in the Vee were merely for drifting out pins in shaft assemblies. My block has served me well over the years, especially when I was a Toolmaker, and I would not be without it.

Regards

Gray,

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

I have made similar blocks, not for knocking out pins or for use on guns but as a guide when hand drilling or tapping holes. When held flat on a flat surface the drill bit or tap is guided perpendicular to the surface. Not as accurate as using a drill press but does a reasonable job for those less inportant holes. The guide blocks are not hollow and slightly shorter than the thread tap.

Paul.

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Posted by Hopper on 25/12/2019 09:33:13:

Precision is a subjective/relative term. My mate the builder regards anything within a quarter of an inch as precision. Within a couple of millimetres is spot-on in his book.

Edited By Hopper on 25/12/2019 09:39:50

I remember a college construction tutor telling me that on the change over from imperial to metric, in the UK, on surveying equipment, they went from 1/4" graduations to 10mm graduations. So the tolerances were increased.

How 'precise' this story is I don't know, maybe someone with construction/ surveyor knowledge could help out?

Ian

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I note that Chronos are listing these at less than £15 for a hardened and ground version.

Brian

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

The only advantages I can see from the hollow inside are:

1. Cheaper to post

2. Handy for knocking rivets right through – as long as they are short enough to fall into the space.

But –

3. more expensive to make and, I expect, to harden (although only the surface needs it for most jobs).

And I can see the benefit of a square version … ?

Regards, Tim

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Clearly these blocks were originally designed as special purpose tooling that later became popular for general use more because it could be bought off the shelf rather than because it was best fitted for general use. As ever the common, standard, good enough one gets copied and widely used. Folk become used to exploiting its advantages and working around the disadvantages.

Seems to me that a blank in softer material with just the Vee and centre hole would be a "better" product as folk could add the hole sizes appropriate for their work. Anodised alloy should be fine. (Modified hockey puck style being just too far down market despite the advantages of a non marking surface.)

I'd probably add two small pilot holes in the centre of the V as starters for folk adding their own. Also seems sensible to make the lower 1/4 or so of the base square with two sides aligned to the Vee so folk could hold it in a vice if need be. Something I've been mimbling over for years but never quite had enough need, time or a suitable piece of material to roll up sleeves and make one.

Whether such would be a viable product as being something that folk would buy rather than look at and say "Must remember that if I need one." I know not. If the price was right maybe a tack on the bottom of the order thing.

Clive

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Clive Foster on 26/12/2019 14:34:22:

…
Also seems sensible to make the lower 1/4 or so of the base square with two sides aligned to the Vee so folk could hold it in a vice if need be.

The larger Starrett bench block had a hexagonal base to permit this (apologies if this has already been mentioned).

[Author]

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