A new member with some questions please

[Andrew Palmer 4Participant @andrewpalmer4]

Learning, always learniing

[Andrew Palmer 4Participant @andrewpalmer4]

Wou

Edited By JasonB on 06/06/2022 07:10:02

[Andrew Palmer 4Participant @andrewpalmer4]

Would really appreciate some help with a description of these valves and controls please?

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Hi Andrew

Whereabouts are you,as it seems you wish to run the loco, the ideal would be to find either a local club or experienced loco runner to guide you through the process of recomissioning the engine and safely steaming it.

Not an overly complex process but it does require some care and awareness of the basic needs as regards boiler safety. I know some clubs do run driver training programmes which would seem ideal. There are some fairly good instructions on driving in LBSC's book on Tich, and I think Martin Evans Rob Roy book. But really no substitute for an experienced helper to guide you, things seem to happen very quickly with little steam engines.

Worth a call for help on these pages, there are some very helpful people here. I'm right on the Kent coast near Folkestone and would be happy to help if you are fairly close.

good luck

Dave

I haven't mentioned boiler certification and testing , if the engine does not have a certificate this is another thing a club can help with.

Edited By Dave Wootton on 06/06/2022 07:09:12

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Welcome!

Definitely, join a club and learn how to prepare, fire and drive the loco.

You do not want to get it wrong and do some expensive damage.

To run near the public, you MUST have a boiler certificate. The Club should have boiler inspectors who can examine the loco, and if it is safe and conforms to regulations, will issue a boiler certificate.

A boiler under pressure can be very dangerous should it fail.

Even at 50 psi, the steam contains enough energy to do you some real harm., so don't take any chances.

Howard

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Not my thing, so apologies for the mistakes in advance! I suggest:

The flat key ringed in grey is the main steam on/off valve,

The two valves ringed in Blue disconnect the boiler from the glass water level in the event the tube breaks.

The red handle ringed in green is the regulator, akin to the accelerator on a car except see below!

The notched handle ringed in Yellow switches between forward and reverse by altering the valve events. It also has the effect of a gearbox and I believe the engine is controlled with it more than the regulator. Hope an engine driver will confirm and explain how the two are used together!

Wild guess, the lever ringed in purple either drops sand on the rails or adjusts how much heat the fire is producing by controlling air flowing through the grate.

Of A and B, I guess one of them, probably B, works the Injector. Injectors pump water from the tender into the boiler with a steam jet. It's important to keep the water level within limits. Or A is the injector, and B is the whistle, or possibly a brake – I'm out of my depth!

The dial is a pressure gauge. The red dot probably indicates normal working pressure. Too low, and the engine won't go, Too high and steam will be wasted by being blown off by the safety valve. Or, if the safety valve is gummed up, the boiler will burst!

Dave

[Andrew Palmer 4Participant @andrewpalmer4]

Thank you all for your helpful replies.
currently in Lincolnshire, not far from Metheringham steam.
I am looking to get the boiler certified and am looking at local clubs too.

thanks Andy

[Peter Seymour-HowellParticipant @peterseymour-howell39349]

 

just to add using dave's colour code. for me it looks like the following

grey: Whistle

blue: top wheel injector steam feed, bottom to clear water gauge, the similar hand wheel on the opposite side of the whistle is probably the blower

green: regulator

yellow: reverser

purple: is either the damper lever or dropped grate lever, most likely the later

The handle near the reverser could be the water valve, if so this would be used in unison with the injector steam valve. water on first and then steam until the injector picks up and pumps water into the boiler.

 

 

Of course, people plumb things in different ways but this seems most logical.

 

Pete

Edited By Peter Seymour-Howell on 06/06/2022 14:07:18

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Silly Old Duffer, you're right it's not your thing!

I'll agree with Peter except purple could be drain cocks, and B is probably pump bypass

Edited By duncan webster on 06/06/2022 15:02:57

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A fine find!

I concur entirely with all the advice above but will answer your question directly, as far as I can from just that photo:

Some landmarks first –

The black-painted panel: the Backhead, the outer back-plate of the boiler, with the Fire-hole and its door. The door is normally be kept closed except when actually adding coal.

The bronze object across the top of the backhead is the Turret or Manifold, supplying steam to various fittings via the valves on it.

Touring the cab clockwise:

1) Lower left corner, possibly a valve (hand-wheel missing?), to control the boiler feed from an axle-driven pump.

2) Lwr L, on backhead: Clack or Check valve, 1-way, passing feed-water to the boiler.

2) Glass tube – the Gauge-glass shows the water level in the boiler. That level must never be allowed to drop below the visible bottom of glass when the locomotive is in steam. If the water drops too low it risks drying the top of the firebox, which can rapidly ruin the boiler and possibly risk it bursting. Most model locomotives have a means to drop the fire quickly if necessary.

Nor above the glass: a bit less serious but risks "priming", throwing water into the cylinders where it can cause damage by hydraulically locking the pistons in place. (And gives you and passengers a hot, oily, sooty shower.)

The little valve on the gauge-glass is for ensuring the gauge works, and for flushing it with a quick burst of steam.

3) Red handle in the middle: the Regulator. One of the main driving-controls, analogous to a car's accelerator but closes completely. Steam engines don't have "idling" settings.

NB: do not try to operate the regulator dry, as that can score its valve faces, especially if there is any scale on it.

4) On the manifold left to right: probably the Blower Valve, certainly the Whistle Valve (central) and probably Injector Steam Valve. I say probably because not knowing the specific engine, I am using other clues.

– Blower. A steam-jet below the base of the chimney, to draw a draught through the fire to keep it alight. When the locomotive is running steadily the blower is usually closed, as the exhaust-steam blasts induce the draught.

– Whistle. Obvious enough! The valve is spring-loaded closed.

– Injector steam. What makes me think that, for this loco, is the:

Vertical valve, RH side of the footplate. This may feed water to an Injector below the footplate on that side of the loco. The Injector resembles a connection between three pipes and a fourth open to thin air; but is a box of clever Physics using a jet of steam to push water into the boiler.

What else?

5) Pressure-gauge: the red dot is probably the required mark at which the safety-valves lift to limit the boiler's Working Pressure to specification. Good technique keeps the pressure to a touch below that red mark, as much as possible.

6) Right-hand side floor, partially obscured, lever in a notched quadrant is the Reverser – setting the travelling direction. Its intermediate settings control the steam flow into the cylinders for more economical steaming once the locomotive is moving steadily.

The Reverser has a neutral, Mid-Gear. Always park the locomotive in mid-gear when in steam, so if the regulator leaks it won't move.

8). Usually hidden below the footplate, should be a Blow-down Valve for draining and flushing the boiler; typically operated by spanner, not handwheel.

 

Finally, 9) the cab itself:

The two blocks at the back, and the channel in the edge of the roof (mirrored opposite) hold the cab panels removed for driving access, fitted for static exhibition.

'

As the others say, your best bet is to join a model-engineering society. Give the loco a good cleaning and see if anything looks amiss by simple engineering principles – e.g. signs of missing screws or split-pins, oddly-loose components, heavy wear. I'd expect some wear on what appears to have been a much-used engine; but do seek advice.

I'd suggest when you find a club ask if someone can go through the boiler-testing process and the loco with you, so you know what to prepare the locomotive for. If you are new to live-steam the book will seem formidable and disheartening so don't try it alone: it's not an easy read even for the experienced, although the testing itself is quite straightforwards.

You might need supply an adaptor to connect the society's test-rig to your boiler. Unless the loco came with the boiler paperwork, you might be asked to present it with the cladding (lagging) off the boiler. It is best also to know the model's design, as a recognised, published one smooths certification.

The boiler examiner will expect all working order as far as possible, but the first test is a cold hydraulic one and it will proceed to test in steam only if it passes that. A sympathetic one of the species should tell you what if anything needs attention, and even offer advice.

Examine the boiler carefully for any identifying number, though if it was home-built it probably won't, as never required in the past.

 

Finally, don't reveal more, but what county are you in? That may elicit local help.

Edited By Nigel Graham 2 on 06/06/2022 16:05:14

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by duncan webster on 06/06/2022 15:01:28:

Silly Old Duffer, you're right it's not your thing!

…

Oh well, having failed the theory test, how close am I to getting the thing moving from cold and stopping it?

1. Fill boiler with water and seal
2. Put Reverser in Neutral and make sure Regulator is closed
3. Light fire, maybe requiring an electric fan on the chimney to keep it alight and boil up reasonably quickly
4. Wait for steam to reach operating pressure, keeping the fire bright and well fuelled
5. Put the reverser into full forward position and fully open the regulator.
6. When the engine is moving at the required speed back off the regulator and bring the reverser back a notch or three: this economises use of steam. The regulator can be backed off too.
7. When the water gauge shows low water, turn on the injector until the level is restored. (As small injectors are a bit unreliable, the engine may be fitted with a mechanical pump, plus a hand-pump in the tender)
8. If steam pressure drops and more fuel on the fire doesn't fix it, brighten the fire by turning on the blower. It creates a vacuum in the smoke box and forces air through the fire. I guess blowing requires judgement; too much blowing could cool the fire and waste more steam than it makes.
9. Stopping: regulator off. Emergency stop, put the engine in reverse (must be true – Casey Jones often stopped the Cannonball Express that way on TV's classic 1958 railway documentary. )
10. Whistle. Never, unless Penelope Pitstop has been chained across the rails by Dick Dastardly.

Dave

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Failed again Dave ! As you moved off you smashed the cylinder covers off having failed to open the cylinder drains ! Fire lit, as steam pressure gets to 30psi remove fan and open blower, continue to raise steam to working pressure. check water level, open drains, select forward gear, open regulator !

Purple = Cylinder drains. Noel

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Hmmmmm. Not quite close enough, I'm afraid, Dave! Or are you teasing us?

I rather think Andrew would like rather more – and more accurate – information than that pretty-coloured Hoopla mis-identifications, derring-do driving and not a single mention of lubrication, drain-cocks, stopping without using the reverser, and other subleties……

I will admit though, I'd not spotted two details…

First, the little lever by the clack-valve.

A damper control? Perhaps, though unusual on miniature locomotives, of which some lack even an ash-pan.

Sanding-gear lever (even less likely).

Rocking-grate or grate-dropping? Maybe but I'd not want the latter function as accessible as that!

Drain-cock lever? That's the most likely, unless this loco does have one of the above, and the drain-cock control is somewhere else, obscured in the photo.

Secondly, is that the blow-down valve almost cuddled by the (probable ) injector water-valve pipe?

If so it seems very high up the boiler. Either that or the firebox is unusually shallow. It is normally as close as possible to foundation-ring level otherwise it defeats its own purpose. Hence my earlier comment about it being hidden below the footplate. I'd not expected to see it so didn't spot it! On this it looks almost level with the firedoor hinge, and if that is the foundation-ring level, the fire would be remarkably shallow and difficult to maintain.

.

This is clearly a side-tank locomotive, but I am a bit puzzled – do both tanks have by-pass fittings, if that is what they are? Usually the tanks are cross-connected so need only one take-off for each feed device, and only one bypass return. That on the left seems to leak, by the stains on the pipe.

The extra fitting I mean is on the starboard tank, partly hidden by the pressure-gauge so hard to identify clearly.

Unless it is an axle-box oil-cup, its left-hand brother being out-of-shot.

.

Oh, and don't try to draw a train with that bit of thin chain and odd screw as coupling. I would not trust them, certainly not for more than just driver plus driving-truck.

This loco looks as if it's well-made but has had a hard life! A few modifications too, I think, judging by the state of the left hand side of the cab and the battered pipework. The plugs in the ends of the manifold seal a longitudinal steam-passage made in the only way possible, by drilling right through then plugging the ends; but that on the left does not look original and I wonder if there was once a second injector or even vacuum-brake ejector take-off in that point.

[Peter Seymour-HowellParticipant @peterseymour-howell39349]

I'll throw my penny in again….the very first thing to do with an unknown steam locomotive is a hydraulic test at twice working pressure which I guess is 80psi so test at 160psi. If you have paperwork giving details of the original shell test and the boiler looks sound then some clubs may just test at 1 1/2 times working pressure.

In answer to Nigel, I'd just like to say that my loco has working sanders, both gravity and steam operated and they work perfectly. Granted this is very rare and on a much larger loco, you won't find such things on a loco like this.

Just my pennies worth…

Pete

Pete

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

What type or model is this, wheel plan ? and what Gauge 3.5" or 5" Noel.

[Andrew Palmer 4Participant @andrewpalmer4]

I have an awful lot to read and understand.
I am very grateful for all your words and direction.

the model is 5 inch gauge and 0-4-0

**LINK**

[Andrew Palmer 4Participant @andrewpalmer4]

and the asking price wasn’t the sale price!

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Looks like a 5"g Tich. Best advice is to join a club (Lincoln?) and get someone experienced to help you. Otherwise it can be a frustrating process.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

There is a hand pump in the left tank and the hole in the buffer beam may give easy access to the blow down valve.. Since there is no hollow stay in the boiler the blower may be fed through the bottom of the smoke box..There are clubs at stamford and Peterbro. Noel.

Edited By noel shelley on 06/06/2022 21:59:26

Edited By noel shelley on 06/06/2022 22:05:30

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Noel,

Thank You for the plug for PSME!

Metheringham may a bit far to come, though.

But DEFINITELY find a Club and join. members will help with instruction, advice and help.

We have two boiler inspectors, and normally hold two boiler testing sessions each year..

Sadly, we no longer have a track.

This coming Saturday and Sunday, we have a static display at the Open Farm and Vintage Weekend, at Park Farm, Thorney, on the A47 just outside Peterborough.

Having an agricultural theme, our portable track won't be there, but we should have some Road Engines on display, in a unit at the side of the yard.. One built by one of our Stewards..

Howard

 

Edited By Howard Lewis on 07/06/2022 09:27:31

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