A New Golden Age of Model Engineering Exhibitions

[shaun meakin 1Participant @shaunmeakin1]

Having just returned from the MEX we thought once again it was very well organised. We at CuP Alloys really enjoy all the exhibitions we attend. For us it's not always just about selling on the day, we feel we are seen and then orders will come in the future. Talking to the visitors has helped shape our product range. You wanted a thin wire – we now stock 0,.5mm dia, etc. We probably advise almost as many people as those who buy on the day, all part of the service and hopefully a reason to visit the shows. The lectures held at MEX and (formerly) Bristol are a great innovation shown by the attendance at them. All traders need to keep thinking of new and different ways to attract business. As many of you know CuP Alloys also go to Model Engineering clubs with their talk offering advice and discounted products. We are currently looking at new ways to expand this service, possibly with Skype. We could also use Skype to show some demonstrations, eg what does a type of burner look like when lit? Just an acorn of an idea currently but please watch this space! On the subject of pricing, we always discount our prices at the shows, this coupled with the removal of shipping costs represents great value. A little tongue in cheek I know, but we often say if you buy a brazing hearth from us you have just about paid for your entrance!!

[Keith HaleParticipant @keithhale68713]

But as Shaun has said prices are made as competitive as possible but that will not satisfy some.

True Story from the Midlands Exhibition.

"I'm not paying that. I'll wait and get it off the internet"

The product is not available, nor will be legally, on the internet. What he meant was,

"I'll wait til somebody robs you and I'll pay the thief"

There you go.

Keith

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Posted by JasonB on 23/10/2018 08:02:37:

I also like to see exhibits in the American style (and Guildford) where the exhibitor gets allotted table space and can be present to chat about their models and possibly even run them rather than just being stood on a table with other entries in a comp or display class where a steward can't be expected to answer more than basic questions about them. This is what Dave was wanting in his thread the other day and also what Mike T did along with fellow IC Engine Builders Group Members.

Exactly.

The only possible 'excuse' for English shows and the number of club stands stewarded by club volunteers (well done those people, by the way) and static displays is that 'over there' the exhibitors generally are individuals because Model Engineering clubs as they are in England are very few and far between. Some of the exhibitors to the major shows will travel for several days to get there and back home again afterwards.

One income generating item in Cabin Fever and NAMES are the auctions and commission sales. The last CF that I attended had a lot of non ME but engineering orientated content for auction: There were a lot of antique engineering tools and scientific instruments, including a lot of Tesla items as well as a large number of models. The auction was conducted on the first day and took up most of that day. Items for commission sale were displayed throughout the exhibition with a wanted price label on them. When bought, they were generally removed at the time of sale.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 23/10/2018 10:25:14:

The efforts put in by you, Steve and Mike are commendable and are undoubtably together with similar effort by others a major factor in the continuation of the show. However it would be naive to think that the venue owner does not make a profit from hosting the function – it's a business and has to make a profit. Have you seen any accounts to indicate how the expenditure is distributed? When I say honest accounts I mean real numbers, not speculative. I didn't say vast profits I said significant.

Paul,

I have seen the figures.

Businesses do need to make a profit, but MEX does have another role of supporting the publications and the hobby, which are interdependent.

Suffice to say the idea that huge profits are being made and disguised is risible. Venue hire costs are enormous and typically exceed gate reciepts.

If exhibitions were a cash cow, MEX would be happening annually, simple as that.

Neil

 

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 23/10/2018 13:57:17

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Rik Shaw on 22/10/2018 17:23:07:

"a model engineering show at the Great Dorset Steam Fair"

What a great idea – I’m there already.

Rik

That's a potential problem. If adding model engineering to the offer doesn't increase attendance significantly, the organisers may not be interested.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/10/2018 14:01:51:

Posted by Rik Shaw on 22/10/2018 17:23:07:

"a model engineering show at the Great Dorset Steam Fair"

What a great idea – I’m there already.

Rik

That's a potential problem. If adding model engineering to the offer doesn't increase attendance significantly, the organisers may not be interested.

The GDSF already has a model engineering tent and based on pitch size I doubt it would be allowed to grow because space is at a premium, they tried to remove the auto jumble for this year but the uproar meant they had to re instate it and I doubt that the stall holders selling stuff could afford the pitch prices and finally its a five day event which we all sign up to show for and you would need a caravan/tent to camp or you book your hotel now as the area around the show will be booked up very soon for next year.

Martin P

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Book now? Be quick – likely all local B&B booked up already!

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Having organised the stand for Peterborough Society of Model Engineers at the sadly, now defunct, Spalding Show, I know that for the first two years, at least, it did not break even, let alone show a profit.

1) It had to become known, and

2) the footfall had to be such that traders thought that the show would be worth attending financially.

I know that the organiser tried to keep ticket prices and stand rents as low as possible, and succeeded. The Show was improving in all respects, but ceased, because, when some members of the team moved away, the effort for one person was too much..

Even organising, or exhibiting on, a Club stand involves effort, time and costs. A two day show means at least three if not four journeys to and from the venue. Organising the entire Show requires vastly more input, and negotiation, over a much longer period. And it doesn't stop when the doors close on the last night.

The venue needs to make a profit, as do the organiser and the traders. That money comes from rent, ticketsl, and sales. Judging by the ticket prices, (which have not increased greatly over the years) the organisers are going to wait a long time to become billionaires. Maybe the venues are asking too much, or maybe, we the punters, are too tightfisted? We'll happily spend three figures on the day, but jib at paying a £12 ticket?

Howard

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by CuP Alloys 1 on 23/10/2018 11:14:59:

But as Shaun has said prices are made as competitive as possible but that will not satisfy some.

True Story from the Midlands Exhibition.

"I'm not paying that. I'll wait and get it off the internet"

The product is not available, nor will be legally, on the internet. What he meant was,

"I'll wait til somebody robs you and I'll pay the thief"

There you go.

Keith

Dimwit expects everything comes from China these days and you just buy it in, he would also want to see genuine figures to prove different , but then if they didn't agree with his idea of what's genuine then it's obviously all lies, just like all the rip off shows put on by 'fat cats' getting fatter off the backs of the working classes.

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

This has been an interesting thread to follow, and although I have never been to a model engineering exhibition, I've attended other hobby shows both large and small both as a visitor since the 1960's and over 20 years ago as assistant to my wife's former business trade stand at major venues and small local shows.

The major shows are very different affairs compared to the club or local show. For the former, the costs back then were c£100- £200/ square metre of floor space, extra for (limited) power supply,shows were mostly 4 day affairs so 3 nights nearby accommodation was needed, B & B 20 miles away from a city center venue is no good when you've got to get the stand ready an hour before the doors open, city parking charges, stock 'losses' etc. We never, ever made a profit during the whole week that it took to set up / tear down/ recover from, a major show .

Our only perceived return from these major venue shows was that they widened her market base by acting as 'live' advertising for the product and services and provided a break from our workshops, but after 3 years or so few new leads were generated and so we stopped attending them with no loss in sales.

It may offend some folk, but my observation is that many hobbyists, not matter whether their model, flies, floats, goes round on wheels, runs on steam, is made of wood, metal, or fine fabrics – – – – are rather parsimonious who can see the cost but not the value, as noted by Dave Halford. Hobbies for anyone are expensive in the sense that the expenditure is not necessary for physical survival, though it may indeed benefit one's emotional and mental well being immensely, but I feel that sometimes, some people are pursuing interests, or perhaps projects, that they don't really have the financial resources for.

All (constructional) hobbies though seem to have been in a slow but steady decline since the mid 1950's when viewed through old issues of the various interest magazines, and so my view is that it is probably important that here in UK , certainly for the major venues, we should amalgamate them into broad spectrum shows rather than narrow single interest shows that can no longer hope to have high attendances. I think that many of the large shows in Germany are run like this and do seem well attended.

Club shows have their own problems, and the work is usually borne by the same few stalwarts year on year, but generally the costs are bearable and may yield a small but welcome financial return and a new member or two, but are always good PR and a chance to raise the local profile.

Trevor

[Simon Williams 3Participant @simonwilliams3]

 

Good evening all, and thanks to Neil for flying this kite, and in response I'd like to offer a very personal and skewed view of what I want to see at an exhibition.

I went to the Midlands show on the Sunday. I was surprised how quiet it was given the number of cars in the car park. Bristol, earlier in the year, was busier, though I went on the Saturday so I'm not comparing like for like. I haven't tried Doncaster, and the last time I went to Ally Pally I was defeated by the crush. It was like a jumble sale at closing time.

The perennial issues over attracting footfall, and the reliance on the same faithful members to carry the burden of making it happen, are not peculiar to our model activities. I volunteer at a number of village events, it's the same microcosm wherever you look. I'm prepared to accept at face value the proposition that these shows are not a licence to print money, and showing me "honest accounts" – fascinating that it might be – won't show the added value of all those volunteers.

I'd like to see all traders at no charge to attend. They're what the organisers are selling, and the idea that they are an income stream to be milked is short sighted and false. Let them make a profit if they can, it's a rough world out there and it's killing the golden goose to squeeze them dry.

Ditto accredited clubs. Their exhibits are what the show is about, though (heresy that it is) there are too many of them. I'm suffering museum fade after the first dozen, though I recognise that my dozen will be different from someone else's. But if you offer free display space to traders then the Clubs are going to want the same deal. However I want to see people who made the clever stuff on show, and to be able to talk to them and shoot the breeze. That personal interaction is why I go to a show.

If the organisers are going to make those two decisions then the gate price has to go up, significantly. I don't know how much, but bring on the "honest accounts" and a business model will reveal itself. To do this the footfall has to be reliable, and as the source of income the higher the better. Bring on free parking, reasonably priced refreshments and a suitable location. Increasing the entrance price is the cost of keeping these shows alive. I take the points made above how the parsimonious nature of the clientele is killing the very activity we support, and unlocking this conundrum is the key to turning it around.

So I would love to see a wider interest served by the show than just steam, shiny bits of metal, and bacon butties. Why does my wife not want to go? Musing on the contents of the "What did you do today" thread, we're into Arduinos, old fashioned discrete electronics, stepper motors, properties of materials etc etc. I'd love to see the cross pollination of ideas into radio control, electronic test equipment, machined wood work (which seems to be very popular) and practical demo's of stuff. Which MyTimeMedia mag's sell well? The gas turbine guys – with shiny exotic materials, loud noises and a distinct hint of danger – open a window of opportunity and "I fancy having a crack at that" to every show I've been to.

But Warwick as a venue isn't big enough.

Every year my wife takes me (!) to the NEC for the Festival of Quilts. Which grows, year on year, and this year occupied four halls of the NEC. You cannot get round it in one day. Don't start me on the subject of ladies of a certain girth on electric scooters, but the point is that the practical exuberance of expressing our creativity is alive and well on the distaff side – and not a few men as well. Taking this lesson back to our model engineering and associative activities I'd like to suggest that Uttoxeter racecourse is more of the scale of the event we should be seeking. I've been to the antiques fair on the Bath and West Showground – 5 acres of it – if we want our show to persevere though the vicissitudes of rising costs and falling expertise we need to broaden its appeal, not constrain our horizons to those of the local village hall.

So who's going to take the lead?

Rgds to all

Simon

edited for typos

Edited By Simon Williams 3 on 27/10/2018 00:35:56

[ZanParticipant @zan]

Back in the late 90’s I had a 10*10 stall at harrogate. It would take Many to get things ready We would drive there each day about 60 miles to avoid accommodation costs. The totall expenses back then was about £750 for the three days. The costs have gone up a lot since then. The last day was dreadfully slow, being full of ppl waiting for the exhibition to close so they could collect their treasure d exhibit and go home. Sales then ran at about £50 per hour in the afternoon. We were exhausted and worked on about 30% profit margin which meant that the first day which is always the most busy was about paying for our expenses. I no longer trade, but as an active builder attend as a punter.

The big companies no longer attend the shows, they are too expensive. No Reeves, Chronos,Proops, Arc, Webco, EKP, Graham Engineering, Excel and several others, they had big stands in the past and a lot of staff needing payment and accommodation. We are left with Warco and RDG. Ours is a very specialist hobby, and comparisons with quilting is a non starter. It’s all about footfall. The foss this year was to me the best for a long time, with a tremendous variety of models the standard of models was tremendous ( from me a top prize winner) and I say why can’t I do that. Yes the standards are golden, but the exhibitions as a whole are suffering. I went on Sat, and was surprised by the small number of people there. We need a bigger footfall if the exhibitions are to flourish. All traders and organisers have to make an overall profit or there’s no point in it.

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Just seen the cost of beer in Mike Poole’s area, you can buy 5 pints of (very) good bitter in my local for the price of entry.

One of the reasons for not going to London area shows is the, in my opinion, rip off prices charged.

Unless things change, this type of show will die along with its aging supporters.

At 74 I feel like one of the younger people there.

As an aside my window cleaner had to ask what my lathe was, he had never seen one although he did just recognise the drilling machine.

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

Rip-off prices? Possibly, it depends on how one judges value for one's money, comparing £15 for entry to spend all day at a show against spending the same £15 to squirt it down the porcelain and getting a headache!

Here are some reasonably current numbers to add reality to the suggestion made by Simon Williams and within the same interest group of his good lady.

A recent Knitting & Stitching Show at Alexandra Palace had 300 stands with minimum area of 4 sq.mtrs. priced at c£300+/ sq.mtr.+ £50 for each electric socket. There were 27,000 visitors over the 4 days who spent an average of 5.3 hours attending, their average family income was judged to be c£52,000 (nearly double then ational average!) and the average spend was c£115, though I'm not sure what this sum included. (A smaller show within the same interest group held say at Harrogate will only yield about 12,000 visitors, who are quite likely to be less affluent and probably will spend less. The exhibitor costs will not however be much lower, perhaps 20% or so).

So if selling the floor space at Ally Pally to exhibitors yields, say, £360,000 to the promoter who has to pay the venue costs and if the door price is to recoup that sum from those visitor numbers then the ticket price needs to be a minimum of £14. The average spend of £115 by the visitor numbers quoted would yield £310,00+ , but is impossible to apportion to the 300 exhibitors with any accuracy because I have no idea what 'the spend' covers, nor do I know how the Promoter got these figures, but I suspect that they are based on their survey of a limited number of respondents declared expenses which include ticket, travel, food and purchases, and limited surveys taken from a few exhibitors. My thoughts are that these very limited surveys are then extrapolated to make brochures and reports as glossy as possible to pull in next year's punters!

If floor space were to be free to the exhibitors, yes indeed some might profit from a show, but the numbers used here only give an average turnover of £1000 or so per exhibitor for 4 days work, and they still have their normal input costs plus, travel and accommodation, which in a major city like London isn't cheap. The only way that an exhibitor can make a serious reduction in their costs is to leave booking space until after the deadline when the promotor might? get desperate with unfilled space.

So although the idea might work for some exhibitions Simon, but I very much doubt that model engineering by itself is a large enough and, dare I say it, a 'spendy' enough, interest group to provide the footfall needed to make it work at major venues.

Trevor

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Putting admission prices into context:

Over "here", the average price of a seat at a Toronto Maple Leaf's hockey game roughly translates to 200 GBP.

And, people pay it.

That's 20x the cost of one of the UK Model Engineering Exhibitions – and you get the WHOLE DAY there, not just a couple of hours sitting on a plastic seat watching "the action".

Something to think about, I hope.

JohnS.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

The point John makes about moaning about a £15 entry fee is well taken but I doubt any model engineer will pay £200 to attend a show. Our old friend market forces kicks in. There is a price point where people will stop buying. I do wonder if halving the number of days a show runs from four to two days reduces footfall by half. People who will attend anyway just have fewer days to choose from. Less cost to the exhibitors and organisers, can only improve the profit/expenses ratio.

Edited By Chris Trice on 27/10/2018 13:35:06

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

With the amount of moaning about over crowding I'm not sure if reducing a 4 day show to 2 days would go down well. Unless you put it on in a larger (more costly) venue to spread things out more and allow for more parking spaces so that puts overheads back up.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

I suspect that, just like car and van hire, a two day venue hire isn't always half the price of a four (five with set-up/teardown) day hire

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Alexander Stewart on 27/10/2018 12:05:12:

Putting admission prices into context:

Over "here", the average price of a seat at a Toronto Maple Leaf's hockey game roughly translates to 200 GBP.

And, people pay it.

That's 20x the cost of one of the UK Model Engineering Exhibitions – and you get the WHOLE DAY there, not just a couple of hours sitting on a plastic seat watching "the action".

Something to think about, I hope.

JohnS.

Yes, but ice hockey is probably the best spectator sport out there (especially when your team is winning).

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by JasonB on 27/10/2018 13:42:23:

With the amount of moaning about over crowding I'm not sure if reducing a 4 day show to 2 days would go down well. Unless you put it on in a larger (more costly) venue to spread things out more and allow for more parking spaces so that puts overheads back up.

Well, this is the old chestnut about people having to stand on trains because not enough carriages are provided. One way is viable, the other operates at a loss.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

You can't win though. Put 1,000 model engineers through a hall and 500 will complain it was too crowded and 500 will complain the place was empty.

Neil

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Interesting points of view.

How many ME's are working and how many are retired compared to, say Quilters or those who use Hobby Craft? who appear to be happy paying NEC parking charges.

Drone fliers are likely all waged, also any Robot Wars would-be builders. What I fail to understand is why so many complain about the cost yet spend several thousand on new machines without breaking a sweat.

A larger venue is just down the road in the Stoneleigh show ground. So what I'm suggesting is combine all models under one roof, be they battery, steam or flight and you just might get a bit of cross pollination

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Dave Halford on 27/10/2018 20:22:06:

Interesting points of view.

How many ME's are working and how many are retired compared to, say Quilters or those who use Hobby Craft? who appear to be happy paying NEC parking charges.

Drone fliers are likely all waged, also any Robot Wars would-be builders. What I fail to understand is why so many complain about the cost yet spend several thousand on new machines without breaking a sweat.

A larger venue is just down the road in the Stoneleigh show ground. So what I'm suggesting is combine all models under one roof, be they battery, steam or flight and you just might get a bit of cross pollination

 

 

This might seem a daft question but why would the organisers of the show, one which I liked, move from their own exhibition centre to another one.

Martin P

 

Edited By martin perman on 27/10/2018 20:37:01

[Anonymous]

Posted by Dave Halford on 27/10/2018 20:22:06:

So what I'm suggesting is combine all models under one roof, be they battery, steam or flight and you just might get a bit of cross pollination

Now there's a thought; a lathe and stand that can be swung over the bed so one can operate it while wrapped up snug in a quilt. Good for those dark winter days when the shed is uninviting.

Andrew

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Here's an interesting regional woodworker show that occurred this weekend, reasonable size venue by all accounts, with a mix of clubs and trade and some space for talks all in a big industrial sized barn, probably similar area to the fixed halls at Warwick. Entry free and of course the clubs wouldn't be paying so the venue costs must have been covered by the trade stands. Perhaps the venue is pleased to get anyone to book at this time of year.

For anyone thinking of putting on a club show here are a few pointers on costs etc. We hire most of a school costing >£500 per day, insurance top up > £120 per day, advertising >>£500, our catering ladies contributed about 25% of eventual profits, our profits were only twice what the two charities we supported took, only about half the membership turned up to help. Our show is general modelling so the main visitor make-up are 2 adults+2 children under 10 looking for a weekend 'activity' and the real modellers are a minority getting a show that would not be viable for them alone.

Another type of exhibition is model railways. Their display layouts are by invitation who understand they are a key feature and expect all expenses including accommodation (3 nights for 2 day show) and meals to be paid. A few years ago one regional but amateur show was paying £15k on b&b alone.

[Author]

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